General Music Chat

Paul,

You are WRONG about the wine. Jesus turned water into wine, not grape juice. Jesus DRANK wine, and he drank it at parties, which is why he was accussed of "eating and drinking" which to those observing this, considered it sinful. Drinking grape juice would not have been considered sinful. Just eating food, would not be considered sinful. The phrase "eating and drinking" means basically partying, having a good time, feasting and drinking alcohol.

Matthew 11:19

The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."


Jesus was accussed of being a drunkard, NOT because he drank non-alcoholic grape juice.

In the verse before, Jesus says that John the Baptist came NEITHER eating nor drinking, yet some claimed he had a devil. Jesus on the other hand DID come eating and drinking, and they say he is a drunkard. BOTH John and Jesus were holy men, speaking God's words, and so Jesus is actually pointing out here, that it doesn't matter if one is drinking alcohol or not drinking it, enjoying life or living as an aesthetic, the people who don't know God's heart are going to judge incorrectly, either way. They are superficial. They honor ceremony and laws, rather than the heart of God.

Additionally, as you surely know, Paul recommends wine to Timothy, for his stomach.

It is clear that wine is acceptable for a variey of reasons, but overindulgence is not good.

And you are also wrong that grape juice accomplishes the same health benefits that wine or beer does. New studies actually indicate that ANY alcoholic beverage is beneficial, in moderate amounts on a daily basis. It is clearly not the "juice" part, as not all alcohol is derived from fruit, but it is the "alcohol" part doing the trick.

I suspect that it is lessening stress, which is the real benefit. Prayer and meditation can accomplish the same thing, so I don't believe alcohol is in any way necessary for good health.

However, it is also not a sin.

And as to leading someone into temptation, that is a personal matter. If a little wine leads you into temptation, then that person's struggle with faith, certainly doesn't need additional assistance, does it? But some of us don't forget God, no matter how much we could drink. I have held the record for shots drunk at a neighborhood bar I frequented in the past. I passed out, but I never considered having adultery, or robbing a bank, or tearing the bar up, or anything else. I just passed out eventually. Was that a sin? Of course it was. I overindulged, which is not healthy. I could have gotten alcohol poisoning or even died. In that sense it was a sin, but the only "temptation" involved was perhaps, too much fun, or maybe ego, in trying not to be outdone, by the person I was having shots with.

Temptation is a matter of the heart, not of physical substances. Having a lack of self control, does not make wine, or attractive women, "evil". The problem is "YOU", not the wine, not the fact that a woman may be beautiful.

So, rather than ban, for all of us, all the things you lack self-control in, instead, practice more self-control, or remove yourself from situations which make you weak.

Instead, like having no instruments in church, or other churches having no rhythm, or other ones refusing modern conveniences, or whatever foolishness men make up, as "proof" of their supposed holiness. Instead, take a lesson from Jesus, that true righteousness is not found in ceremonial observances, but rather, comes from the heart.

Is God your first love? Do you hear his voice? Do you seek to love and forgive as he does? Is he the motivation of your life, and the object of your greatest affection?

Those are the "observances" that he is truly concerned with.

That is the offering that pleases him.

And why was it that they asked why they "Saved the good wine till last?" The good wine was the freshest or least fermented. And since Jesus had just made it I think that further indicates it was fresh and not fermented.

OMG... that is utter nonsense.

The ruler of the feast says that everyone else serves the good wine FIRST and then later that which is WORSE, but you have done the opposite.

Why does everyone serve the good wine first, and then the lesser wine is served later?

Because IT IS alcohol.

They get them buzzed on the good wine first, and later, save money by serving the cheaper wine, because everyone has been drinking by this point, and WON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!!!!!

Seriously, how obvious is that??????

Man, people will just bury their brains in the sand in order to justify their preconceived ideas of morality.

I can drink all the non-alcoholic sam's choice cola I want bro, and even hours into it, I will know when someone gives me real Coke. My tastebuds are not diminished, no matter how long I drink one as opposed to the other.

If I am intoxicated, that is another matter.

Disaronno, is my favorite Amaretto, but if I were to drink enough of it, it is questionable whether I would realize that some off the shelf brand had been substituted later.

Not so with non-alcoholic beverages.

Look, you have a belief system, conserning this, that is cultural and ingrained, and you are not about to accept facts, no matter how logical they may be, because it upsets the tidy little system you have bought into. Sadly, it would affect your fellowship most likely, and the opinion of the religious community you surround yourself with. That is precisely why religious communities that fall into the trap of making primary judgements through outward obervance of rituals, as opposed to a true spiritual assessment of a person's heart, is so wrong, and even destructive to the deeper purposes of God.

We have a detailed record of what Jesus faced by such people, who judged externally, but Christianity in general, has not learned these lessons, and have become the modern version of the Pharisees.

I am convinced that well meaning people would crucify Christ all over again, were he to come into a modern church today, where love of rituals, unconsciously supercedes love of God and truth.

If Jesus were to walk into your church Paul (and countless others), I think it is entirely conceivable, that you would all run him out on a rail, after witnessing, his seemingly "sinful" behavior, and his unwillingness to alter it, and fit within the guidelines you have developed for yourselves.

Rather than just dismiss this out of hand, I wish you would step out of your mindset for a moment, and just consider, whether there may be any parallels, between the legalism of Jesus' day, and the same legalism found in much of the modern Christian community.

More than one, seminary student, has noticed the hypocrisy of obeying the institution's rules of short hair on campus, while listening to a professor teach, and looking up on the wall and seeing a painting of Jesus with long flowing hair. Jesus himself, if that image is accurate, would have been expelled from the very institution purporting to be serving him and teaching about him. Yet, these same students grow up to be pastors and professors who maintain the same policies in their own churches and institutions.

Doesn't that tell you something, about the state of the church today?

It is a relatively minor example, of a MUCH greater issue. But these churches and institutions have an ingrained culture to preserve, and money, power and influence to protect.

Even though they surely recognize the hypocrisy. Think they will change it? Not a chance. Which is exactly why God has struggled so long to bring man to a higher spiritual plane, and why the Bible records literally THOUSANDS of years, of such problems.

Concerning old testament instances of musical instruments - many times it's mentioned it goes something like... “Woe to them … that sing idle songs to the sound of the viol; that invent for themselves instruments of music like David” (Amos 6:1,5).

When using the old testament to defend an idea about worship it seems galations 5:3 is pertinent. -

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

man, Paul I'm sorry, but in re-reading your original arguments, I'm stricken by the notion that you have been placed under some poor exegetical teaching.
These verses above are not meant to be read in this way.
The Galatians verse is clearly used in the defense of the NT covenant, in light of the "you must be circumcised" crowd..

A good place to read more about the Amos verse if you're interested:
http://biblecommenter.com/amos/6-5.htm

Well, I'm gonna try & stay out of too much wrangling, but I for one just about choked when I read the assertion that God frowns upon worshipers using instruments while praising His name.

That is preposterous in light of the whole of scripture.

ugh

We could definitely use you at our next Satanic Sacrifice da Ho' down!

btw...

Regarding the "high" that various substances can provide, it is really not the drug itself causing a high, but your brain releasing chemicals that result in feelings of pleasure. Various drugs merely mimic the natural effect that your brain already is capable of. They act as messengers, which triggers the brain to release these chemicals already present in your body.

I've experienced a drug-like high, through intense prayer before. And of course, a natural high is less addictive, and more controllable. Which for me, would prove this scientific fact to be true, that it is entirely possible to experience such highs naturally, and even through spiritual activity.

I had a friend many years ago, who believed that drugs were satan's replacement for prayer. I didn't think much about the idea then, but later, knowing what I know now, I wondered if maybe he was right?

What's that?

Did someboby say "Howl Down"?

Whew I'm kinda tired. Wish me luck with the new guitarist tonight.

Whew I'm kinda tired. Wish me luck with the new guitarist tonight.

Good luck bro!

Is this a replacement guitarist or an additional guitarist?

Sorry, missed if you commented before on this.

We "may" want to use him as a "Lead" Guitar or should I say in order to allow Ray to concentrate on vox. And as an additional acoustic, perhaps some back up vocal as well. I am way ahead of myself though I've not even met him yet.

We "may" want to use him as a "Lead" Guitar or should I say in order to allow Ray to concentrate on vox. And as an additional acoustic, perhaps some back up vocal as well. I am way ahead of myself though I've not even met him yet.

Hope it works out!

The addition of back-up vocals, if he's any good, particularly for alot of Christian music is a major plus!

OMG... that is utter nonsense.

Wait, I thought we were both arguing for Christianity and you are taking the name of the lord in Vain?

Look, you have a belief system, conserning this, that is cultural and ingrained, and you are not about to accept facts, no matter how logical they may be,

Yet you never respond to the obvious logic in he asked me to sing so I sing. And he didn't ask me to play so I don't. Man that is just facts. I read it. You did too.

By the way the instruments played in the old testament never made it into the most holy places, the inner part of the temple.

You keep saying that we are not following the spirit but instead are following rules. Why is it so hard to swallow that we might be following the laws that God set up and are still filled with the spirit, still serving with the right attitude. We can know the truth. Someone could easily come to you and say that you follow too many of the rules of Christianity and not the spirit because you do certain things that the bible commands. That is what you are doing to me. I read for myself what is required of me and I go for it. I do so with a heart of submission.

Regarding the grape juice having the same health benefits as wine, antioxidants, it does.

As far as drinking your buddy under the table goes, poor stewardship of your body wasn't your only transgression, the example you set was another. As far as it being a personal temptation, it is. So I steer very VERY clear.

1 thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Wait, I thought we were both arguing for Christianity and you are taking the name of the lord in Vain?

I didn't know the Lord's name was "god". Did you see it on a business card or something?

"oh my god" is not offensive to me. Sorry.

it has become a benign expression, which everyone understands as an expression of surprise or shock. Aspirin used to be a legal brand name, but not any longer. It's meaning has become generic. Gay used to mean "happy" but few think of it that way any longer. Words develop common useage, and occassionally that usage changes over time.

I haven't investigated the etimology of that phrase, or rather, origin, of the phrase, but I suspect, that it developed when people were in amazingly fearful circumstances and they probably literally were calling to God in such instances. Kind of like "Lord Jesus, help me!"

So, I don't think the phrase itself should be considered taking the Lord's name in vain anyway (not to mention that it is not His name). Calling on the Lord is not taking His name in vain.

Of course, that is not the spirit in which I intended it, so please refer to the previous response, of the meaning of phrases being changed when common useage occurs, with a different meaning.

Something like G-Dammit would be a better accusation, since we are technically asking God to curse something or someone.

By the way the instruments played in the old testament never made it into the most holy places, the inner part of the temple.

Neither did the worshippers my friend. Only the high priest was allowed into the holy of holies, and only once per year, to offer a blood sacrifice and incense before the mercy seat. It was intended as a precursor to Christ, a type of Christ, in which the way was blocked, until Christ's sacrifice. Similarly, when Christ was crucified, this is why the veil of the temple was rent (torn) in two, which then revealed the holy of holies for all to see, allowing everyone entrance, or the ability to see inside at least. This was a type of salvation through Christ (The ultimate Holy of Holies) being open to all, not just the high priest.

So instruments not being played in the Old Testament "holy of holies" is meaningless of course, as concerns your argument.

You keep saying that we are not following the spirit but instead are following rules. Why is it so hard to swallow that we might be following the laws that God set up and are still filled with the spirit, still serving with the right attitude.

Well, you are clearly not "following the rules" since "silence" on a matter or the absence of providing a rule, does not then suddenly BECOME a rule. But the freudian way, in which you refer to it as one, only proves my argument, that you have made it a law for yourselves, that you now worship a religious observance. This right here, is the DANGER of legalism. It is what caused many Jews to fail to recognize Christ, and it likely prevents you now, from worshipping God as fully and FREELY, as you could. It also has caused a split in your original group, and caused YET ANOTHER denomination of Christianity to be formed, as if the THOUSANDS that exist now are not enough.

As to "heart" and "attitude" I have no doubt that many of you, if not most, are decent people trying to follow God as they allow themselves to see fit. I also have no doubt that many of the Jews that sent Jesus to the cross, thought they were actually upholding and defending the faith as well. They were wrong. It may very well be, and in fact likely is, that your flock is wrong in the VERY SAME WAY, and for the VERY SAME REASONS. Namely, crossing a line, where religious observances are worshipped, more than the living God, who is far more vast than to be boxed into holiness through laws and religious observances. In fact, many of God's champions violated these supposed "rules" on a regular basis. Sometimes they were right to do so, sometimes not, but their closeness to God's heart allowed for it, either way in many instances. David eating food from the temple. Jesus and his disciples eating with unwashed hands. Moses arguing with God, etc...

As I said before. Laws and rules are a guide. They will NEVER however, be evidence of someone's faith or lack of it. They are physical acts. Superficial exploits. They clearly can have value, but only a limited value. Anyone can practice a physical act to perfection, but only God and that person can truly know the heart behind the act which is performed.

Regarding the grape juice having the same health benefits as wine, antioxidants, it does.

Where "red" wine is concerned, antioxidants, are only one of THREE ways in which wine helps cardiovascular health. Japanese scientists have found however, that while the skins and seeds of grapes themselves contain antioxidants, non-alcoholic wines do not provide the full benefits of the alcoholic variety, such as reducing LDL levels. So real wine, is still healthier. However, as I mentioned before, new studies suggest that ANY alcohol, even the hard stuff, improves health in moderate quantities. They are not all fruit based, like grapes, and so this leads me to suspect, that possibly it is the reduction of stress, that is occurring. However, it could be something else, like alcohol aiding digestion or circulation in some way, who knows? But alcohol provides stress relief for many people, so I suspect it has something to do with that element. Stress is, after all, a HUGE factor in reducing health quality. And therefore, close family ties have shown to make people live longer, stroking furry pets have shown to help people live longer, laughter has been shown to help people live longer, etc... All have stress reduction in common.

As far as drinking your buddy under the table goes, poor stewardship of your body wasn't your only transgression, the example you set was another.

Yes, duly noted. He was likely the bad example to me, but I could have resisted the impulse to play the game, and been a better influence to him, so I stand guilty as charged. And as I recall, there were no hymnals in that particular bar, so I don't think I can be accused of not singing to him in spiritual songs at least.

As far as it being a personal temptation, it is. So I steer very VERY clear.

1 thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Well, I commend your admission of a personal weakness, and your willingness to avoid it as a personal pitfall.

As to "appearance of evil", well beauty, and "appearance" is in the eye of the beholder. I have no problem with people who consume alcohol in moderation, like Jesus. Jesus appeared evil to many for doing so, but not to me.

In the immortal words of the Doobie Brothers...

"Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright... oh yeah!"

btw...

Meant to say....good points, Sans and Celtic.

Nice stuff there...

Neanderpaul...In some of your pictures, you kinda look like a mixture of Jack Black and Jack Nicholson. You're kinda like Jack Blackolson...or Jack Nicholblack.

Well, anyway, I have to go to sleep now with the lights on, cause I just watched the "Salad Fingers" video series and it scared the crap out of me.

Yessness.
You never cease to amaze me, Neanderpaul.