General Music Chat

Craig, you missed the second part of my statement about rednecks & granfaloonery.

I suppose you aren't a fan of the ultra liberal author Kurt Vonnegut, Jr...LOL...a granfalloon is a group of ppl that have no real unifying qualities other than the sharing of a geographical area...Hoosiers are a fine example of a granfalloon - no common philosophy or religion or even common cultural background...to quote the great Book of Bokannon; "If you want to see what's in a granfalloon just peel the skin off a toy balloon." (From that great book "Cat's Cradle)

I use the word granfalloonery to describe the "America - right or wrong" philosophy, that so many ppl I talk to enjoy. The "our country is so great, and yours is not nearly as good," thing. It's inherent in all of our dealings with other cultures, and why we are described by ppl around the globe as being arrogant bossy buttheads.

So I don't think I can be accused of lumping anyone all together. There are lots of white collar, professional, high income granfallooners out there, aren't there?

I hold to my belief that everyone, even entire societies, have a god-given right to be wrong in thier beliefs, thier choice of thier preferred way of life. (Of course, what's "wrong" is in the eye of the beholder, no?)

These ppl have internet access. They have access to world news that is no less biased than what we get in this country. The knowledge is out there for them to use to make qualified decisions. They can change things, if they want to, perfectly well, without our demanding that they change for thier own good, or ours.

Our lack of knowledge about thier way of life is not "liberal-speak," my friend. It is public knowledge that we cannot even understand them enough to infiltrate any of thier closed circles, as we have done in every western-based "cult" or gov't to date. We simply don't understand them. We have a terrificly hard time even understanding thier languages, not just the words & dialects, but the cultural references. They are the enigmas of our time. Nor can we understand thier own unique view of thier history, or ours. Have you read the Koran? Do you know what makes them tick, what makes them choose this over that? If not, then you cannot hope to influence anything but thier ire over your impudent interferences in the face of thier 15-hundred+ years of tribal existence, with its associated cultural, religious, & familial patterns of life. You are an infidel, Craig, not fit to rule them, or teach them, or force them into a "better" way of life.

We cannot grasp the drive for self-destruction to injure an enemy, We couldn't quite grasp it in our dealings with Japan in WWII or Korea or Viet Nam, either.

If you do not understand what drives them, what makes them who & what they are, you cannot understand them enough to sway a culture that has lasted far longer than your own.

They have surpassed the concept of granfalloons. Thiers is a culture that has lasted over a thousand years in ways very similar to the ones they live with now. It's worked for them, at the cost of millions of lives, yes, but it's thier way. They will not blithely accept our fledgling way of living just because we SAY it's a better one. They will not bow to the lure of capitalism, either, for thiers is what they perceive to be a nobler way of being, while we are decadent consumers in thier eyes.

In starting this war, we have broken our promise to the Islamic Nations made by none other than George Washington, who assured them that this nation was in no way a Christian-based one, that they need not fear any action from us against them, overtly or covertly. He made this promise after he had left the presidential post, but was still working for our fledgling country in the capacity of ambassador to Turkey & various other Islamic states. Yet here we are in a new crusade, off to fix the middle east. As lofty as your intentions are, you will not be tolerated any better than the previous crusaders were, my good man.

In thier eyes, our broken promise made in the infancy of our nation makes us LIARS, ppl not to be trusted.

If we continue as we have been for the last 60 years, we will find ourselves at war with an entire religion, not just a few cells or countries. It needs to be stopped before we end up losing everything our gods have created in a war with bigger and deadlier weaponry. Remember that they don't care if they live or die, as long as we are stopped.

Oh, & "democracy" is not the best form of gov't, in a lot of ppl's eyes, either. A benevolent dictatorship works very well. It did for thousands of years. It's even in the christian bible. There's no democracy there, either.

In my opinion, ours is not any longer a democracy, anyway. We passed that up a long time ago, & the fact was driven home when GWB stole not only the candidacy, but the entire election, through nefarious means. Ours is strictly a gov't FOR the big corporation, BY the big corporation, these days. The ppl have very little to do with anything at all anymore.

Hell, politicians have very little to do with it anymore, other than serving corporate needs, and I don't think that's a healthy form of gov't. Why the hell SHOULD Iraq or any other nation follow our example?

I suppose you aren't a fan of the ultra liberal author Kurt Vonnegut, Jr...

Yeah, missed that reference. Sorry. I'm just not a big fan of fiction. I always feel bad about that fact, and sometimes force myself to read it, but I prefer history and biographies, encyclopedias... LOL

the "America - right or wrong" philosophy, that so many ppl I talk to enjoy. The "our country is so great, and yours is not nearly as good," thing. It's inherent in all of our dealings with other cultures, and why we are described by ppl around the globe as being arrogant bossy buttheads.

It is true that Americans are often guilty of exclusivity in thought, but this is due to many factors. A big one is simply ignorance. I have the ability to look at my country honestly and praise it where due, and criticize where due. Part of this is in thanks to having friends from all over the world, for all of my adulthood. They have been friends, lovers, roomates. I have learned much more about other cultures, and their perceptions of us, whether right or wrong, and the evil we have done across the globe, as well as the good, more so than many other Americans ever get exposed to on a personal level. So, I'm fairly cosmopolitan as well as embracing of other cultures.

But one of the beauties of our society, is that one can maintain their culture (for the most part) in the privacy of their own home, and in their own communities.

I hold to my belief that everyone, even entire societies, have a god-given right to be wrong in thier beliefs, thier choice of thier preferred way of life.

In a closed system, or a totalitarian one, there is little real choice, if any. the choice is to die or be imprisoned if you challenge the system.

(Of course, what's "wrong" is in the eye of the beholder, no?)

Intellectually? Sure. But some believe, and I am among these, that there are ultimate rights and ultimate wrongs, that are beyond personal opinions and intellectual exercises. And in the end, only an ultimate authority figure, with ultimate power will be able to confirm this for us.

These ppl have internet access. They have access to world news that is no less biased than what we get in this country. The knowledge is out there for them to use to make qualified decisions. They can change things, if they want to, perfectly well, without our demanding that they change for thier own good, or ours.

Can they really? How did the slaves accomplish that? They would still be enslaved without cooperation of those in power. They could not conceivably arm themselves and overpower the whole of the nation. Enslaved peoples often need help in attaining freedom, whether that slavery is classic slavery, political slavery or religious slavery.


Look, my wife is horny.

Gotta finish this later!

See ya!

"...some believe, and I am among these, that there are ultimate rights and ultimate wrongs, that are beyond personal opinions and intellectual exercises. And in the end, only an ultimate authority figure, with ultimate power will be able to confirm this for us."

But by interfering, by forcing a change upon a ppl, are you not placing yourself into the role of "ultimate authority figure?" I still think it's arrogant.

The slaves in the US overcame thier situation through uprisings & help from other Americans, Craig. I suspect that the Iraqis could do the same, if that were thier wish. And that's still not saying that these ppl are enslaved by anything other than thier history & thier beliefs. Remember that for many years they have been ruled by a minority. If they truly desired change, I would be much more apt to say yes go ahead & help them if THEY had been the ones instigating the war, but they were not.

How would you feel if someone invaded the US to free you from GWB's religious beliefs, from "unfair" blue laws, poor domestic policies, etc., & offered you more porn, unhealthy or unsavory food, more prostitution, more drink & drugs, more decadence than you presently have, in its place, while cutting your public services, free travel, & searching your person whenever they wish, and shooting up your neighborhoods in the name of this newfound "freedom?" That is what they perceive as they view our efforts in thier country - that we are making the world safe for Pepsi, porn, & enslavement to a new decadence that they do not desire, while making things harder for the ppl on a daily basis in the interim.

But that's okay, right? Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

You are right on many levels philbymon. There will always be alterior motive behind any group action. But one of those ultimate wrongs is to see that old man being beaten or child being raped, and to leave your sword sheathed. My opinion is that mankind is under an evil veil, and peace can only peek brifly through the slits made by the sword of the few whom seek justice, however imperfect.

Those issues would be better addressed in our own country, sans, on a personal basis, rather than to apply it to an entire nation or culture we understand so little about.

But even if you were to apply these gladiatorial ideals on a national basis, then wouldn't it also apply to those African nations that have ASKED for our help? To the scores of third world countries that need food, employment, medical care, etc? Our own corporations sent bad baby food to Africa, without repercussions from our gov't...why? It had to go SOMEwhere, didn't it? Yeah, some "help" we are to the world at large!

Sure, the ones who are trying to run Iraq now want our help. Only we can keep them in office, in power, at this time. But this does not mean that we are wanted there by the majority of Iraqis, or even needed to assure thier safety.

We cannot even assure our own ppl of safety in our own nation's capital!

I think it comes down to "physician, heal thyself!" Otherwise we're just a bunch of bullying baffoons forcing others to live our way, oh, & btw, have some Twinkies & a Coke!

But by interfering, by forcing a change upon a ppl, are you not placing yourself into the role of "ultimate authority figure?" I still think it's arrogant.

We were discussing morality, as whether it can be ultimately right or wrong. You expressed that "wrong" is merely a matter of opinion. I disagreed. I'm not sure, this conversation is within context of a new conversation. But... if man is the sole judge of right and wrong, we have a problem, since the concept of right and wrong, is fluid, where human beings are often concerned. This to me, is the helpful role of religion, which "claims" to provide laws based on a higher authority, and is therefore harder to dismiss out of pocket, because hey "What if god himself judges me?" With religion as a guide (most major religions anyway), sex between a parent and child is ALWAYS going to be wrong. When man is the sole authority over himself, maybe sex between a parent and child, would one day be deemed appropriate? Who's to say? But religon should be a guide, along with other, even secular guides, and not necessarily the law of the land, since some religons would violate human rights.

But, no one has forced the Iraqis or any other Middle Eastern nation, to abandon their Muslim faith. What happens in the form of government, may occassionally contradict a person's faith, but overall, unless their religion is soley based on governmental issues, their faith remains largely in tact. It is currently acceptable in many Muslim nations, to exact capital punishment, for example, on a daughter suspected of having sex before marriage. This is an example of where faith could contradict a law imposed. But you tell me. Should an innocent girl, or hell, even a guilty one, be murdered for premarital sex? Is this appropriate to you? Because it happens ALL THE TIME. And is one of the reasons that respect for individual freedom MUST overcome forced religious beliefs, where law and government are concerned.

Not long ago, a Muslim man's daughter, was taken out to a field, and all the men in the family, followed with their automobiles, and after the father went first, one by one, all the men in the family ran over the daughter, until her body was mush. Her crime? Her new husband had gone in to lay with her after their marriage. He is supposed to screw his new virgin, and bring out a cloth with blood on it, hanging on a stick, and display it to the girl's family, who waits outside the bedroom door, to see her blood on a cloth, proudly displayed by the new husband. Instead, in this case, the husband ran out of the room exclaiming "She's not a virgin! She's not a virgin!!!" This led to the "justice" being sought by the girl's own family, in the form of running cars over her till she was dead. Presumably, the father loved his daughter, but religion is the law of the land, and more important than his love for his daughter. She had brought shame to the family.

When the time came for funeral arrangements, the mother INSISTED of her husband, that a doctor perform an autopsy, to determine "for sure" that she was indeed, not a virgin. The husband consented, and the autopsy performed. The doctor declared that she was indeed, a virgin. A dead virgin. Turns out, that the new husband, couldn't get it up on his wedding night, and rather than suffer the embarrassment of admitting this, he accused her instead, to save face, at the price of her life. Her family was all too willing to exact "God's" justice on their own daughter.

Tell me again, how living in the kind of fear that creates, is preferrable to our "imposing" government that ensures human rights. How many daughters, sons and friends, would still be alive, had it been imposed even sooner?

Arrogance? No, I don't agree. Human rights, and freedom to make individual choices, supercedes any cultural concerns, or claims of "arrogance" you want to make. I can only assume, that I know quite a bit more about Muslim culture than you do. Cause we haven't even skimmed the surface, on how the Muslim religon, when it is the law of the land, violates human rights, and even what most of us "infidels" would call simple human decency.

The slaves in the US overcame thier situation through uprisings & help from other Americans, Craig. I suspect that the Iraqis could do the same

You suspect wrongly. There have surely been dissenters in Iraq, but they were found out and murdered. America was not a tyrannical dictatorship. How can you compare the two? Americans were free to voice their opposition to slavery. There were government officials doing so, eventually, even the president did so. And when this occurred, it errupted in Civil War, causing more American deaths, still to this day, than any other war we have ever fought. America was an open society. Citizens not granted those rights, found voice in those that were. Also, because of state's rights, blacks were free in many states already, before this became national policy. You just cannot compare what happened with slavery here, to a totalitarian system of government.

How would you feel if someone invaded the US to free you from GWB's religious beliefs, from "unfair" blue laws, poor domestic policies, etc.

You are not making cohesive arguments. I don't need help from a foreign nation with these issues, because I live in a free society, which affords me MANY options in redressing any issues I have. Beside the right to practice my own religion or philosophy in the privacy of my home, I am free to live in the state I feel, best suits my beliefs. If I believe my issues are national ones, or tread upon my rights, there are numerous legal means of having the government change the laws. I am free to develop petitions, and have other Americans that share my views sign them. I can get issues put on local ballots. I can appeal to courts directly. If I can't afford representation, but my issue is one of civil rights, I can even find numerous non-profit agencies, accept my case and have their own lawyers try it for me, without a penny from my own pocket. I can write letters to the editor of newspapers to try and sway public opinion in my favor. There are so many options available to me, in a free society, that lack of will on my part, would be the only thing standing in my way.

, & offered you more porn, unhealthy or unsavory food, more prostitution, more drink & drugs, more decadence than you presently have, in its place, while cutting your public services, free travel, & searching your person whenever they wish, and shooting up your neighborhoods in the name of this newfound "freedom?" That is what they perceive as they view our efforts in thier country - that we are making the world safe for Pepsi, porn, & enslavement to a new decadence that they do not desire, while making things harder for the ppl on a daily basis in the interim.

But that's okay, right? Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

On the one hand you are talking about the ill effects of war on a nation, as it climbs through the rubble and rebuilds, and on the other you are talking about the potential Muslim point of view, that American society has a corrupting influence. You are just tossing out anything you can and seeing what sticks to the wall.

Are public services in shambles? Of course. There are bombs going off all over the place. There is not yet a stable functioning government. The South spent decades rebuilding after the war. Are we better off? Are we a whole nation again? And one without slavery? Without Jim Crow laws? We are. The struggle for freedom, the struggle against archaic ways, and replacing them with a new but fairer system, is brutal. But a better and more civilized life for ALL is the result. It just requires time.

btw...

Somewhere else you talked about primitive or archaic systems not being able to be changed, because they were in place for so long, and they have worked fine all that time.

First of all, "working fine" at the expense of human rights and civil rights, is NOT "working fine".

Secondly, research how old Japanese civilization is. They seemed to have adjusted well, don't you think?

So, no more of using this "we don't understand them" and "they won't accept democracy" crap.

...and speaking of slavery; I don't know about you, but I am enslaved by my gov't for over 4 months out of every year to support this war, as well as a myriad other gov't-based programs that I totally disagree with.

At this point in time, you, me, & every legal American spend over 1/3 of our working life to pay taxes that were supposed to be voluntary when our country was born.

I dunno. Maybe we need some outside help to solve this enslavement.

Yeah, I know...it'd be worse if we had socialized medicine.

But why is our infrastructure failing when we are PAYING so much for it?

Obama? Hillary? John? Any thoughts?

It seems that you are attacking a nation's right to rule by religion, Craig, in the name of civil rights. That is stepping on very dangerous ground, indeed, & the basis for my concern.

I still contend that the US is, indeed, a corrupting influence in the minds of these ppl. (Hell, in MY mind, as well!)

So you are going to declare war on the nation of Islam in the name of humanity. Where do you think that will go?

I have read the Koran. It scares the bejezzus outta me. Either you are with them or against them. An infidel is to be either converted or destroyed. Those are the coherent fundamentalist views. Follow the letter of the law or die, or have body parts removed or disfigured. Yeah, it all looks pretty bad to me.

Equally horrendous things have been perpetrated in the name of Christ...and still are, here & there.

But change will happen on its own, in its own time. It did for christianity. Going too fast causes one hell of a lot of trouble, both for the students & the teachers, in this case.

You don't just give a stone age man a laptop & declare him ready for the new millenium. It takes a lot of time. You have to reeducate 2, 3 or even 4 living generations of living thought & experience in "the old ways." Give a person who's had no choices in life a whole slew of choices all at once, & what will happen? They'll continually make wrong choices until they stumble across the right one, if they're lucky.

To go in & declare that thier centuries-old way of life is wrong, that our way is better, & that they will thank us for it all one day, is a rather childishly naive way of handling the problem.

Yes, Japan has come along quite well, in the face of our interference. But Japan is not the same as the nation of Islam, and you can make all the comparisons you like, but they simply do not apply here.

This is an entirely different situation, with entirely new paramenters. Change in the Islamic cultures has been tried and tried and tried again, always with the same results; lots of dead, but no change here, thank you very much...now go home & lick your wounds.

Do you really think that bigger & better weapons will sway them? They can easily have them, too. Then what?

The answer is not a military one, Craig. These changes will have to happen from within, perhaps economically as thier resources become archaic, hopefully through new ways of heating & transporting. Your way of handling things will ultimately result only in one way - total global war ending in the possible extinction of mankind, all with very good intentions both on our part and thiers.

Nations are groups of people. And like myself. Could you for an instant imagine with me, a nation like me, whom in one thought would by nature help the old man being beaten by stopping his aggressor. And in the second thought help the good people of another country who's goverment I considered a threat by killing all of them and taking what is theirs for myself. If it were up to me our troops would shoot and blow up as they move foreward foot by foot untill Iraq was a parking lot for the bigist oil company you could imagine. Americans would have free fuel for as long as it lasted. Live in cooperation or die would be my forign polacy. I have no problem understanding evil because I am. In that light, our present faulty system is much more humanitarian. Good thing I dont run it eh.

Well, yeah, sans...it's a very good thing you are not running things, imo...LOL

But I'm gonna tell you something that might surprize you, now.

I would fully back any attempt to completely destroy the country & make it a part of ours...and yes, it would be what I would consider a "wrong thing to do," but still, it would show ppl that we are willing to go to great ends to assure our victories. This modern version of war is just plain stupid. If you're going to do it, then do it ALL THE DAMNED WAY, not this mamby pamby BS of "helping them to be free & rebuild thier own lil world."

Either go all WWII on 'em or get the hell out. To hell with "humanitarian issues" like "oh dear, the poor dead innocents." That is not what war is.

But I'd bet you'd still have huge repercussions from the nations of Islam, not to mention the other, more "civilized" ones.

That's the only way to war, though, imo. The hell with helping them be better than they are. Who the hell are you to decide what's better?

If that's your goal, then just stay the hell out of there.

And considering the current mindset of this country, that's what we should do...just get out.

Wow philbymon, My halfassed attempt to provoke a your F,n crazy man out of you failed. Cool. I am surprised, but dont be offended. I find very few people can step back from the gore long enough to see it from a Warriors perspective. (notice I said Warrior, not solder) Peace, harmony, justice and coopreation or all out no rules destruction. You are totally correct in your "seeing" that our military and goverment have no F,n idea what they are doing when it comes to the reality of war. In war there are the the winners and the losers, no such thing as innocent. Choose a side and fight or die sitting still. I think the only repercussion that would result of black and white / on off policy would be useless words from useless men. And many years of peace and justice.

It seems that you are attacking a nation's right to rule by religion, Craig, in the name of civil rights. That is stepping on very dangerous ground

No nation has a "right" to rule, in ANY form, when it violates human rights and supresses individual freedom.

I still contend that the US is, indeed, a corrupting influence in the minds of these ppl. (Hell, in MY mind, as well!)

I think you should sign up with them then.

So you are going to declare war on the nation of Islam in the name of humanity. Where do you think that will go?

The ONLY absolute protection for any particular religion, is either the abolition of all other religions by force, or the freedom of ALL religions to exist. As you have admitted, we know where radical Muslims stand on this issue. I vote for the latter. Namely, the freedom to exercise and practice ALL religions.

I have read the Koran. It scares the bejezzus outta me. Either you are with them or against them. An infidel is to be either converted or destroyed. Those are the coherent fundamentalist views. Follow the letter of the law or die, or have body parts removed or disfigured. Yeah, it all looks pretty bad to me.

Really? But it's "worked" so well for hundreds of years now. Maybe you just don't "understand" it, as you alluded to previously?

Equally horrendous things have been perpetrated in the name of Christ...and still are, here & there.

This surely justifies all abuses of power then.

But change will happen on its own, in its own time. It did for christianity.

Again? Christianity does not propose the destruction of all other forms of religion. It makes clear that there are "false" religions, but NOWHERE in scripture does it propose elimination of it, or conversion from it, by force. Not even in the old testament.

Yes, Japan has come along quite well, in the face of our interference. But Japan is not the same as the nation of Islam, and you can make all the comparisons you like, but they simply do not apply here.

I most certainly, CAN, compare them. And when I do, Japan was, in many ways, WORSE than radical Islam. Islam is concerned with basic tenets being followed, i.e. "The Five Pillars of Islam" for example. They do not require that one speak Arabic to be Muslim, the Koran has been translated, into dozens if not hudreds of languages. A country is not necessarily made to abandon all it's cultural inheritance either. You will find different cultures among differing Muslim nations and peoples.

But when Japan occupied Korea, they forced them to speak Japanese, and forbade them to speak Korean. They were also FORCED to adopt Japanese culture and abandon Korean culture. They even forced them to adopt Japanese names. A person's name is very much a part of their identity. Imagine being FORCED to change it. They stripped them of EVERYTHING Korean, and forced them, in effect, to become Japanese. And religion? Yes. That too! Koreans were FORCED to abandon their own religions, and worship Japanese gods instead. So don't tell me I can't compare them. It is an ideal comparison.

You my friend, need to line your bookshelves with some history books.

Maybe I'll even read Slaughterhouse-Five or Cat's Cradle, just to make it fair!

Do you really think that bigger & better weapons will sway them? They can easily have them, too.

Bingo. That's EXACTLY the problem. "They can have them too!" How many times have you seen the ultrareligious commit suicide-bombings enmasse? I've only seen it twice. Japan and radical Islam. (damn it to hell, another Japanese comparison! gosh).

So, what do we do with an abiding faith that your suicide will be rewarded, the belief that you must be converted or destroyed and finally then, to have the wealth to eventually have the most devastating weapons known to man? What do you get when you combine all these elements?

Based on YOUR approach, the answer would be "Sh*t your pants"

My answer: Stay in Iraq, and help them establish Democracy, and use it as a bulkhead, to change or at least, keep check, on the entire region.

The answer is not a military one, Craig.

No, the "answer" is not military, but military force is what will allow the answer to be realized. The answer is NOT diplomacy. Radical islamists want to destroy us, not talk to us. As long as a large enough population of Muslims accept that interpretation of the Koran, it will never change. What must change, is that human rights, and freedom of belief, under the rule of law, must take PRIORITY over an interpretation of the Koran which will absolutely lead to the destruction you fear. For radical islamists, there is no "live and let live" philosophy. Try and recall early Mormonism. The Mormon religion has a well documented history of polygamy, of marrying multiple wives. It is part of their theology, doctrines and scriptural writings as espoused through the prophets. But when Utah was refused admission to the Union because of it, they changed that particular tenet. And now the Mormon Church, at least officially, has disavowed this practice. This is what needs to occur to handle radical Islam. Like the Mormons, mainstream Islam, will have to disavow certain tenets of their past beliefs, in order to peacefully co-exist in the world, with other faiths. There are radical Islamists, who will not accept this, just like there are break-away Mormon offshoots that do not accept the ban on polygamy. But what happens to those break-away sects that are caught violating this law? They are brought to justice. Watch the news right now, to see an example of this in action.

This is what will have to happen, as the world shrinks and populations grow, in order to attain any hope of a peaceful future. When the world was not so "small" and not so interdependent, it may have been easier to ignore the sufferings of people living under tyranny. They were "far away" and not much threat to "us". The "us" is now MUCH BIGGER. The world is interdependent, and getting smaller through travel and technological progress, every day. A solution to the future MUST be found. And your idea of maybe waiting hundreds of years for change to "eventually" occur, is not tenable.

The time is too short. The threat is too great.

In the immortal words of Tuco Ramirez:
When its time to shoot, Shoot, dont talk.

You said:
""We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Our national belief (We hold these truths to be self-evident), what we are founded upon, is that God (Creator) gives us (endowed) certain rights, which can NEVER be taken away from us (unalienable), and that these are 1) Life 2) Liberty and 3) The pursuit of happiness.

Why is it important that we recognize these rights as coming from God? Because man can take away what man gives. But no one can take away something that God gave. They are inherent, natural rights, that ALL mankind is BORN WITH! God granted them, and therefore, no man, no government, no preacher, no medicine man, no imam, has a right to take them away from any human being.

You say leave them in ignorance and deficiency of those rights?

I say, let them enjoy the gifts that God gave all human beings!"



In response, all I can say is that you seem to be approaching all of this with your own brand of religious fanaticism. You want to convert them. You want to give them the benefits of your better way of life, both here & in the hereafter, I suspect. Keep in mind that nowhere in the Bible is any form of democracy or republic espoused, Craig. So where do these ideas, these "religious truths" come from?

Christianity does not propose the destruction of other forms of religion? Tell that to the Native Americans!! Or to the nations of Islam, for that matter. That's why our 1st president had to make those promises that we've broken.

You think I should sign up with them? More granfalloonery, Craig. "Love it or leave it" mentality, there. I know you're better than that, man.

Keep in mind that Osama, & myriad others in thier cause, were educated in this country. Yet they still choose thier own way of life over ours.

I'm not saying it's better...I'm saying that they chose to continue & even escallate the religious tenets they were used to, even after seeing how much better our way of life is than thiers.

Yes, Islam looks bad to me, considering my own cultural background. That doesn't mean I won't try to see things from thier point of view.

We have been trying to force these countries to change by various means for decades, Craig. The Shah of Iran is a classic example of how our own interference in thier lives has flooked them up & angered them & hardened thier hearts against us. Since then we have used economic sanctions, which meant that they could not even get much-needed medical supplies, at times. Who's being inhumane here?

In thier eyes, the acts of 9/11 were perfectly justified on several fronts.

Prior to that, they pretty much left us alone, made good bucks off of us selling oil, & all was right in the world. They most certainly were NOT forcing thier religion on us, or even trying to convert us in any slightest way. I appreciated that. It wasn't until after the Shah was overthrown in Iran that things started heating up between our cultures (again! well, there was that whole Isreal thing).

Our support of Isreal, in spite of the innumerable civil rights violations against Palestinians, has also exacerbated a volatile, tenuous relationship.

I'm just not entirely convinced that we are such good guys.

Personal rule in thier families has indeed caused untold sorrow, due to all sorts of things, resulting in death, maiming & disfigurement. I still say that we have no business just showing up on thier front doorstep & demanding change. That's not our place. It's the UN's, if it's anyone's.

Leave it all to the world court, & certainly make your vote heard. Yes, we ARE all tied together, Craig. And we should work TOGETHER to solve human rights issues.

Our efforts would have been much better placed in the African continent, rather than against an entire religion...and yes...that's just how they see it.

When we took this country, the natives were forced to give up thier religion, thier nomadic way of life, & even thier own language, &, yes, thier own names as well. Hmmm...just like the "evil" Japanese, eh?

The only way other countries can judge us is by our own sordid history. I can see why they are concerned.

No, my man. In my mind, the answer is not to poop myself. It's to live & let live, to join with other nations to solve civil rights issues, and to let change happen as it will until we are messed with. Then I say we should attack with everything we have, and do not quit until the job gets done, no matter the cost in human life & suffering.

But when we are messing with other nations as much as we have, it's hard for me to justify military action when they retalliate.

Perhaps your reading the wrong material after all, Craig.

An arab woman "insisted" that an autopsy be performed?

WOW!!

And her husband AGREED to it?!?!?!

WOWOWOW!!!

See that goes absolutely 180 degrees from what we're told about these ppl. Thier women have no say, no rights. From what I've been told I would have expected him to throttle her for "insisting" upon anything at all.

I can only assume that some form of justice was performed on the bad impotent husband...you didn't finish the story, Craig, & I'd like to hear the rest of it. It is interesting.

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On another note, it took this country nearly 200 years from it's conception to adopt the civil rights act of '64. You want to make them accomplish it all in a handful of years at the point of a sword. Unrealistic, Craig. They aren't even close to the level of "civilization" that we had 200 years ago, as far as I can tell, by your description of it.

60 years after thier "liberation," Japan is still quite a racist, sexist country, by our more "modern standards." I think that your views about our role in changing them is a little naive, as well.

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And back on the economy issue...I must disagree with you on that, too.

I'm in the construction industry. Wood prices, concrete prices, EVERYTHING has skyrocketed. Why? Not cuzza the cost of gas, although that is making it all even worse, now. Our fine administration has forced many manufacturers of building products to sell thier wares to the gov't at cost, so we can rebuild Iraq.

I'm talking about millions of board feet of lumber & plywood, & they didn't even use much wood to build over there, cuz they don't HAVE it. Drywall has doubled in price since we "won" the war a couple years ago.

Metals, plastics, electronics, everything that we use to manufacture anything, is now at a premium because of this "duty" to rebuild Iraq, & the manufacturers aren't getting a fair price for any of it. It's taken, & they get "cost."

Yeah, the economy is a huge issue for me, esp when we're having to rebuild the same damned things over & over, & they keep blowing them up (or we do).