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#276377 by GuitarMikeB
Sat May 06, 2017 10:46 pm
Jookeyman wrote:
I would have to disagree w/ you here, Mike. I learned how to improvise in a Prog Rock band. Any genre of music can be improvised. It's not the genre but the approach to the music.


Nope, there you go - "improvise". Totally different than playing a particular song as it was written/played by others.

So one of you may have been able to figure out - by the 3rd chorus - that the song went back to the IV-V twice after the verse. Maybe. Problem being 'Berklee trained' is you get used to having sheet music in front of you. :wink:
#276381 by Planetguy
Sun May 07, 2017 1:10 am
LOL....if I ever needed three choruses to figure out the lay of the land on a simple or even mildly complicated song I'd have had my a$$ shitcanned a long time ago!

Since not all jazz gigs require sheet music (most "casuals" do NOT) it's naive to think that is the extent of what studying at places like Berklee prepares you for as someone enters into the real world of playing gigs.
#276392 by J-HALEY
Sun May 07, 2017 6:19 pm
Something I have noticed about jazzers is that rock music is beneath them, most of them. I love it when I hear a jazzer say they can nail the song because they have heard it so many times. As a result they don't practice it then when the song comes up on the list they don't nail it! I have seen it many times. I have played with many jazzers and I know how to read a cue and follow the drummer. My belief is being serious about playing music takes discipline and that means learning the song. Again just my 2 cents.
#276401 by GuitarMikeB
Mon May 08, 2017 12:36 am
Sure what you are saying takes discipline, but its not what Jeff and I mean. If you are doing rock cover songs, you don't "improvise based on what you know": theory, scales, etc. Sorry, that's just not the way it works.
Do you really think you could nail 20 Beatles songs - correctly, that is - the way the Fab 4 wrote and recorded them - various instrument parts and vocals/harmonies with other players without rehearsing together? Could you 'follow along' and play something, sure, and you and your buds could play some kind of loose 'sounds like a Beatles song' version, but again, that's not what we're talking about. Two guys on guitar doing a blues number like Sitting on Top of the World is just not the same, sorry.
#276402 by MikeTalbot
Mon May 08, 2017 1:39 am
I can usually play along with a song that I have heard before, or if it is the simple chord changes we all know and love. It's fun but what it is not, is what MikeB is wanting, a note for note representation of the song.

I can see why a tribute band would want to really nail the song. But it's a lot work sometimes, getting it note for note...I always felt like I should just write my own.

Talbot
#276409 by GuitarMikeB
Mon May 08, 2017 12:14 pm
Hey, don' t get upset.

Just trying to point out that playing in a rock cover band no one is reading charts (well except for the new guy in the corner who looks at a cheat sheet of chords, but not sheet music). Even if it is not a tribute band, in most cover bands the songs are being done as originally recorded/presented to the public, or as close as possible - because that's what people want to hear. Oh sure, a band can 'make the song their own', but that's got to be more the exception than the rule. Not until a band is playing 90% original music can they get away with doing covers that way on a regular basis.
#276413 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Mon May 08, 2017 3:24 pm
J-HALEY wrote:Something I have noticed about jazzers is that rock music is beneath them, most of them. I love it when I hear a jazzer say they can nail the song because they have heard it so many times. As a result they don't practice it then when the song comes up on the list they don't nail it! I have seen it many times. I have played with many jazzers and I know how to read a cue and follow the drummer. My belief is being serious about playing music takes discipline and that means learning the song. Again just my 2 cents.




And of course, you are right. I'm a bit shocked at how laziness is being portrayed as skill here.

Yes, the genre and style makes a huge difference. None of you guys could work for me without at least 3 rehearsals. I mean, we can jam but I ain't paying for sloppy.

I have written dozens of what I call "hyper-basic" songs that any moron could follow on a chord chart the first time. We wouldn't need rehearsals to play them, but I would insist if there were time.

Then I have other songs that there is no way you follow them without rehearsal, no matter how good you think you are. They are simply not like every other song you have played. I've played with some of the world's best. Andy jams onstage with Satriani....but we would still have a rehearsal before a concert, if only to determine the transitions. That's what a professional does. It isn't about an individual's talent level as much as all individuals playing as one.

We all know that rehearsals are important to a tight performance. Not talking about just boring repetition, but finding the loose spots and making them tight. I can do the "jam" thing (and quite often do) but it greatly limits the song selection and we end up playing what we can, instead of what we should.

Any musician, and I do mean ANY musician, who doesn't want to rehearse is lazy and not a team player. They will not grow beyond where they are, but worse, they will ensure that the band doesn't grow either and that is simply unacceptable to me.
#276423 by Planetguy
Mon May 08, 2017 7:44 pm
:lol: :lol: "Laziness"? :lol: :lol: "Discipline" ? :lol: :lol:



Sorry, you don't get to the point where you can play Coltrane's "Giant Steps" at 180 BPM on a variety of instruments by being a "lazy" musician. Or one who lacks "discipline".

You guys miss the point entirely. Actually several. I have nothing against band practice...when it is NECESSARY.

In both THE 121's and PLANET JAZZ...it is not. And for the umpteenth time...these are not "jam bands"...we don't "jam out".

We play songs....we begin together. We end together. When they have hooks/signature parts that make the song "the song"...we play them.

We simply do not need to rehearse "Black Magic Woman" or the latest Keith Urban song weekly to be able to pull them off w/o gaffes.

If YOU can't...and need band rehearsal, well, that's YOUR deal. Viva la difference.

Someone requested "Black Magic Woman" at the truckstop last wk. The band had never played it before, but three out of four us had in previous bands. Drummer....never. We nailed it, had people dancing, and the person who requested it bought us a round.

Now, as for playing it exactly like the record and Mike's notion that only bands who play 90% originals can/should play THEIR version of a tune...We played it damn close to the record on Fri night (w/o congas and timbales or organ) but the next night I insisted we play it as a straight up old time sh*t kicking country two-step.

As usual, the guys in the band thought i was nuts, but they indulged me and it came off as if we'd been playing it that way all our lives. People were up dancing...probably more so than when we played it straight! And it was funny....entertaining for both the band and the crowd. People were grinning, laughing (with us), and later on break the bartender told us she preferred our goofball country version.

And that's the difference between musicians who can comfortably play off the top of their heads and make it work and those who might need three rehearsals before they felt comfortable enough to try that.

PLANET JAZZ play standards and originals. Any jazzer worth his/her salt does not need "band practice" to sound "rehearsed" when playing these tunes. As for sounding "rehearsed" on originals....i'll either just show the other musicians the changes and they'll create PARTS (not what you guys dismissively poo poo as "jamming out") or i might give them a recording, or a written part or chord chart. They might do some work on their own at home....or not. But these are solid pro musicians who have played thousands of jazz gigs, put in immeasurable hrs to get to their skill level, and who not only are able to think on their feet ...but rightly take pride in the level of skill they have to pull that off w/o sounding like they're "jamming out".

They didn't get to that level of proficiency by being "lazy" or from any lack of "discipline". They got to that level because they worked their asses off to get to that level.



There's a misunderstanding you guys have here....i have nothing against "band practice" WHEN that's necessary. And hey, if someone needs to get together weekly or whatever to nail their parts on Loverboy and 38 Special tunes....fine.

But that's just not necessary for either of the two gigs i gig most w. Finding better uses of our time isn't laziness...it's simply part of being a pro. You put your practice time in where it's needed.

I've played in bands where we rehearsed plenty and that WAS necessary for those bands. It's not for THE 121's. It's not for PLANET JAZZ.

I never claimed that i could show up on a pickup gig w no rehearsal and nail 20 Beatles tunes just like the record.

And as for anyone not feeling comfy before you had me at three rehearsals....sure, if that's what YOU need to feel comfy....i'm there. IF you're paying me for my rehearsal time. Cos' if i have my parts together after one rehearsal...don't expect me to come back more so YOU can be in YOUR comfort zone w/o compensating me for my time.


Back to "laziness". I've spent (and continue to do so) zillions of hrs working on my chops, learning theory, acquiring new tunes, and keeping up on several instruments. I'd venture to say that I've put in as much or more time getting (and keeping) my $hit together as anyone else here.

No, as I see it laziness is making over the top generalities that fail to recognize and acknowledge that no two situations or two musicians are alike. And I have heard one goofy generality after another here.


Look, there ARE situations that require rehearsals...and there are those that simply don't for musicians who can play and communicate at the level that affords them that luxury.

If YOU can't....don't assume others are in that same boat.
#276424 by J-HALEY
Mon May 08, 2017 9:24 pm
Mark, I am not dissing jazzers at all. I know you are a heck of a musician. I am talking about experience I have had with jazzers. I know the discipline it takes to play off the cuff like you guys do. Don't think for one second that anyone on this site is implying you or Jook don't have mad chops or are lazy. I have played with guys just as good as you and have seen them flounder from not knowing the song. I had one sub bass player didn't even want a setlist in advance. He said just start the song. I'm telling you he nailed the crap of the music. I gave him cues all night 50 songs. When it came time for Heart Of The Matter Don Henley he could not get it. I can jam not knowing a lot of songs. Problem is I don't do things half as good as I am capable for the dough. I prefer going in prepared and doing music to my full potential.
#276425 by GuitarMikeB
Mon May 08, 2017 9:39 pm
Jookeyman wrote:Let me put this into context where you can understand- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_4iQDYDVNo

Peace out-
Jook


Not sure what your point was on this James Gang song?

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