Sanshouheil..
Do you cook your steak on a BBQ, or a Forman grill ??
That's the difference between a tube amp and a modeling amp..
Both will cook your food, but which one tastes better?
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#26328 by Shredd6
Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:40 am
Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:40 am
Shredd6 wrote:
First of all if you think there's a modern tube out there that can compare with a good RCA NOS, I'd like to hear it, because as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist, and I'm not alone in that thinking. It's worth the $30-40 in my book. I only need one in my amp.
You'll also notice in the first post that I really didn't care for the modern Sovteks, Tung Sol, and Groove tubes 12ax7C. (Russian , and Chinese manufactured). The only modern tube I liked was the Mesa (Russian made 12ax7-ecc83). But it's still subjective to the listener.
I'm afraid that what's going to end up happening is that anyone who doesn't really understand anything about tubes, is going to all of the sudden think that you could buy any Tung Sol, or Sovtek, and it will sound no different than any Mesa, even though they all may be manufactured in Russia. I hope that's not what you're saying. Your explanation was just a little vague.
During the 50's and 60's re-branding and outsourcing was common. But there were still symbols and date codes left on the tubes to identify who the manufacturer was. (ie: the diamond on the bottom of a Telefunken, or the octagon shape surrounding the letters of an RCA.)
The G.E. 12ax7a in my #2 slot is labeled "kinsman", but by examining the way the "12ax7a" was written on the tube, I knew it was a genuine G.E.
Due to the fact that it was labeled "kinsman", the tube cost me $7.. 1/2 the cost of my modern Mesa ecc83. So where exactly did I "risk a huge sum of money"???
With a little knowledge and education, you really don't have to. This is a beautiful sounding tube, it's not 'microphonic', just one little badass. ( Incidently, I bought a lot 4 of these, so quadruple the badassness for me, right?)
I'm not saying that the vintage tubes are bad......quite the contrary, I agree that tubes manufactured today don't have the same quality, I am however saying that buying vintage tubes is a 'crap shoot' at best as to what shape they are in. BTW Mesa's tubes are tubes are Sovtek made. The Sovteks come pretty close to the vintage for quality, and at least you have some assurance that they work. If you can pick and choose your vintage tubes at a store, then great, but paying premium prices online is just not very reliable.
I'm in Texas my man, and down here a real man grills with wood or charcoal and wood, Gas grill is for the fish fry. I guess that means Suh,
I am honour bound to buy a Tube Amp. And learn how to fix the damn thing! No bland tastin steak at my house by Jackson Brown. Or was that stonewall Jackson ? Ya'll gonna make me cough up more cash than my old lady. I have an aversion to buying used anything. I may sound spoiled but when I buy some stuff if it aint perfect it just pisses me off to no end. I'd rather spend the extra cash than walk around for a week with my trigger finger itching cause someone screwed me over.
I am honour bound to buy a Tube Amp. And learn how to fix the damn thing! No bland tastin steak at my house by Jackson Brown. Or was that stonewall Jackson ? Ya'll gonna make me cough up more cash than my old lady. I have an aversion to buying used anything. I may sound spoiled but when I buy some stuff if it aint perfect it just pisses me off to no end. I'd rather spend the extra cash than walk around for a week with my trigger finger itching cause someone screwed me over.
George, Im learning a lot of stuff myself right now about amps from Shredd and others.
If you get a tube amp, go with a smaller wattage amp or you will not be happy. I dont know how loud you can play in your band but if its at a lower volume you might not be able to use a larger tube amp and heres why. I have a Mesa Triple rec, 150 watts all tube, just a monster amp but I cant use it too its potential. Why cause its way to loud. When you cut back the master volume it just kills all the things that make a tube amp so great. I met with a Soldano dealer in my area last night and his take is that a tube amp master volume should be in the 6-7 range to really make the tubes start working and reacting like they should, then adjust your preamp to get your tone. On my Mesa in order to stay in the room on the high gain channel Ive been setting my master around 3-4. At this level it just doesnt come to life. He had a small 50 watt one channel combo that sounded great and was plenty loud for any gig you might have. I went home and cranked the Mesa to the ranges it needs to work and it sounds great, but I dont know anyone who will let me play it this loud, so I always have to pinch it off to make it work. The louder you play the less preamp gain you need to sound good. If you listen to classic rock, most bands really dont use a lot of distortion. Led Zep tends to lean toward the clean side. Page used small tube amps cranked for most of their recordings. Hendrix used a Fender Twin for Purple Haze, Foxy Lady and all the Are You Experienced stuff, now he did front load with distortion pedals. Thats an octave fuzz box on the out solo to Purple Haze. Eric Clapton used a Fender Champ for Layla. These are some of the best recorded guitar tones in history and they were all using very small amps.
Im seeing that a 20-50 watt tube amp will probably fit in anywhere. If you play a big venue, mic it. You mention playing outside, thats a whole different animal. To me playing outside just kills guitar tone, you just lose all the thunk sound. Once again mic it up.
Dont think that you need a half stack to get a good sound cause these days you dont. SOmeone had mentioned the Crate 30, thats probably a great starting point to look at smaller tube amps.
If you get a tube amp, go with a smaller wattage amp or you will not be happy. I dont know how loud you can play in your band but if its at a lower volume you might not be able to use a larger tube amp and heres why. I have a Mesa Triple rec, 150 watts all tube, just a monster amp but I cant use it too its potential. Why cause its way to loud. When you cut back the master volume it just kills all the things that make a tube amp so great. I met with a Soldano dealer in my area last night and his take is that a tube amp master volume should be in the 6-7 range to really make the tubes start working and reacting like they should, then adjust your preamp to get your tone. On my Mesa in order to stay in the room on the high gain channel Ive been setting my master around 3-4. At this level it just doesnt come to life. He had a small 50 watt one channel combo that sounded great and was plenty loud for any gig you might have. I went home and cranked the Mesa to the ranges it needs to work and it sounds great, but I dont know anyone who will let me play it this loud, so I always have to pinch it off to make it work. The louder you play the less preamp gain you need to sound good. If you listen to classic rock, most bands really dont use a lot of distortion. Led Zep tends to lean toward the clean side. Page used small tube amps cranked for most of their recordings. Hendrix used a Fender Twin for Purple Haze, Foxy Lady and all the Are You Experienced stuff, now he did front load with distortion pedals. Thats an octave fuzz box on the out solo to Purple Haze. Eric Clapton used a Fender Champ for Layla. These are some of the best recorded guitar tones in history and they were all using very small amps.
Im seeing that a 20-50 watt tube amp will probably fit in anywhere. If you play a big venue, mic it. You mention playing outside, thats a whole different animal. To me playing outside just kills guitar tone, you just lose all the thunk sound. Once again mic it up.
Dont think that you need a half stack to get a good sound cause these days you dont. SOmeone had mentioned the Crate 30, thats probably a great starting point to look at smaller tube amps.
"A winks as good as nod to a blind man"
Thanks for your input John. I too have gathered that what I am looking for is a small watt tube amp. I am going to mic or voice line out to my PA in any case so what I need is something thats going to give me all its got at a lower volume. Ive not looked at the Crate amps so I'll do that as well.
I have had my eye on a Carvin vintage Nomad 50watt two channel job witha voiced out and speaker out jacks as well but the damn thing is >$500.00. I have also come to the conclusion that You and Craig are quite correct about my tone and the type of music we are playing. The grunge sound was a lot of fun when we were just dickin around but the more involved I get I realize it just getting in my way as a guitarist.
I have had my eye on a Carvin vintage Nomad 50watt two channel job witha voiced out and speaker out jacks as well but the damn thing is >$500.00. I have also come to the conclusion that You and Craig are quite correct about my tone and the type of music we are playing. The grunge sound was a lot of fun when we were just dickin around but the more involved I get I realize it just getting in my way as a guitarist.
George Im looking real hard at customizing my little Subway Rocket amp with different preamp tubes and maybe a speaker change. This is a dual EL84 tube amp which develops around 18-20 watts. It will kill one of those Marshall solid state half stacks and its only got a 10 inch speaker.
Here is a link about speakers for those in search of tone.
http://www.tonequest.com/pdf_pubs/sampl ... _Proof.pdf
Here is a link about speakers for those in search of tone.
http://www.tonequest.com/pdf_pubs/sampl ... _Proof.pdf
"A winks as good as nod to a blind man"
#26351 by Shredd6
Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:05 pm
Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:05 pm
Very well said JW..
A 1/2 stack would probably be overkill for Sanshouheil. Earlier I'd suggested a 60 watt Carvin. It had 3-12ax7's and 2-6l6's. That would be a good range as well as a 30 watt tube amp.
In my case, my music is very high energy, very high volume. It's really tough to play over a drummer and Bass player when they're just going off brutally. So I need the wattage. A 50 watt just doesn't seem to be enough for me in that situation. I push my Mesa to about 6 during practice.
At lower levels I'll play my Marshall. I'm fine with my 8100 live as well. It has just enough tone in the distortion to get my point across, and nobody in their right mind would want to steal it.
Good post JW.
It's good to see that you're checking out all your different options. It is inspiring when you find that perfect sound you're looking for. My biggest point wasn't to hound you to keep your Mesa. It was that when you have a complex amp such as your Mesa, you have a lot of options to shape the sound to something you like by using your tube selection to your advantage. The same should be able to be done with any tube amp you decide to get. Soldano, Rivera, Mesa, Matchless, etc.. etc. A little research can go a long way. I still learn new things all the time.
In your case, if it turns out that it's just too loud for you when you get to that volume level to push the tubes (and I feel ya there, Mesas are loud.), then at least now you've gotten to the root of the problem, and you can now make a better conscious decision on which rout to go next.
That alone can end up saving you a lot of cash, and keep you from feeling like you've made a mistake in the future. (Had you just bought another 150-watt head, you might have found yourself in this same spot later)
Good luck to both of you. I'm still interested in hearing what you end up deciding, so please keep me updated ok.
A 1/2 stack would probably be overkill for Sanshouheil. Earlier I'd suggested a 60 watt Carvin. It had 3-12ax7's and 2-6l6's. That would be a good range as well as a 30 watt tube amp.
In my case, my music is very high energy, very high volume. It's really tough to play over a drummer and Bass player when they're just going off brutally. So I need the wattage. A 50 watt just doesn't seem to be enough for me in that situation. I push my Mesa to about 6 during practice.
At lower levels I'll play my Marshall. I'm fine with my 8100 live as well. It has just enough tone in the distortion to get my point across, and nobody in their right mind would want to steal it.
Good post JW.
It's good to see that you're checking out all your different options. It is inspiring when you find that perfect sound you're looking for. My biggest point wasn't to hound you to keep your Mesa. It was that when you have a complex amp such as your Mesa, you have a lot of options to shape the sound to something you like by using your tube selection to your advantage. The same should be able to be done with any tube amp you decide to get. Soldano, Rivera, Mesa, Matchless, etc.. etc. A little research can go a long way. I still learn new things all the time.
In your case, if it turns out that it's just too loud for you when you get to that volume level to push the tubes (and I feel ya there, Mesas are loud.), then at least now you've gotten to the root of the problem, and you can now make a better conscious decision on which rout to go next.
That alone can end up saving you a lot of cash, and keep you from feeling like you've made a mistake in the future. (Had you just bought another 150-watt head, you might have found yourself in this same spot later)
Good luck to both of you. I'm still interested in hearing what you end up deciding, so please keep me updated ok.
#26352 by Shredd6
Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:14 pm
Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:14 pm
jw123 wrote:George Im looking real hard at customizing my little Subway Rocket amp with different preamp tubes and maybe a speaker change. This is a dual EL84 tube amp which develops around 18-20 watts. It will kill one of those Marshall solid state half stacks and its only got a 10 inch speaker.
Here is a link about speakers for those in search of tone.
http://www.tonequest.com/pdf_pubs/sampl ... _Proof.pdf
Dude.. You have a Subway Rocket!!
Oh dog.. You can definitely pimp that out. You're set then. That's a great little amp.
Good deal man. That's fat!!
Shredd, I know where your coming from. I was always the loudest guitarist in my area. But I think I always had a a good sense for my tone. So many younger bands these days are just totally messing up their basic tone. Ive gotten to where if I go see a band and their tone sucks Im out the door in a couple of songs.
I think that punk, hard rock and metal benefit from higher volume levels, cause thats kinda what those genres are all about. My son listens to stuff that I cant handle except in small doses and thats coming from mr crickets in the ears.
The Subway Rocket is a way cool amp. Im going to play with it for a while and see what I can get out of it. Another thing to look at is your pickups. I have a 60 reissue LP with super hot pickups and it makes my amps way more honky than they would be with a smoother pickup.
Anyway the quest continues.
I think that punk, hard rock and metal benefit from higher volume levels, cause thats kinda what those genres are all about. My son listens to stuff that I cant handle except in small doses and thats coming from mr crickets in the ears.
The Subway Rocket is a way cool amp. Im going to play with it for a while and see what I can get out of it. Another thing to look at is your pickups. I have a 60 reissue LP with super hot pickups and it makes my amps way more honky than they would be with a smoother pickup.
Anyway the quest continues.
"A winks as good as nod to a blind man"
I don't know if you 'Suth'n' boys have ever heard of Traynor amps, but if you want a tube amp with all the best of the old Marshall's, Fender's, and other poular tube amps of the '50's & '60's, you should lay your hands on either a Traynor Mark III, or a Traynor Custom Reverb. These amps were hand-wired with massive supply transformers, and are built to last forever. Pete Traynor used to test his prototypes by tossing them out a 2nd storey window, then, if they worked after replacing the tubes, they went into production. I recently picked up a Mark III and, IMHO, after 35 yrears, still haven't heard an amp that can match it's sound. Hell, it would even satisfy you Texas boys.
I've seen some of the Traynor stuff but not being knowledgable in this I did not research them for availability price, etc. My drummer just figured out its his wedding aniversery tonight so no practice dang it. It'll give me a little more research time today anyway so I can read up on the speaker side of this thang. I did look at some Soldano stuff oooo thats some expensive amps man. It feels good to at least be narrowing the hunt.
I guess I was born last night! In a moment of weakness I ordered a Carvin Nomad 50 watt tube amp. I hope it arives while my wife is at work.
Had a guy in a gun shop once tell me it was easier to beg forgiveness that to ask permission. Jez I hope he was right. I got a feeling that when I crank her up the first time everyone in the area is gonna know.
Wish me luck ye ol fellow tube heads.
Had a guy in a gun shop once tell me it was easier to beg forgiveness that to ask permission. Jez I hope he was right. I got a feeling that when I crank her up the first time everyone in the area is gonna know.
Wish me luck ye ol fellow tube heads.
#26380 by Shredd6
Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:45 pm
Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:45 pm
Sanshouheil.. Dude, I'm impressed..
Now that's some serious BBQ!!
5-12ax7's, and 4-el84's.. You got some mad tube tone comin' your way.
I'm happy for you man. I really am.
Now that's some serious BBQ!!
5-12ax7's, and 4-el84's.. You got some mad tube tone comin' your way.
I'm happy for you man. I really am.
Thank you for your input, all of you! Soon as I get some of our tunes re-recorded using my new amp I'll postem so you can toastem.
Our bassest Eric was really pleased with the news, he is a seasoned player and we are fortunate to have him in the mix. I plan to surprise Ray our front, and just blow his mind!
Our bassest Eric was really pleased with the news, he is a seasoned player and we are fortunate to have him in the mix. I plan to surprise Ray our front, and just blow his mind!
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