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#23627 by nofaith
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:01 am
Craig, very impressive! You "get it"..you should wear that fact like a badge of honor my friend, very few people do "get it".



Craig Maxim wrote:
Guitaranatomy wrote: Craig, I understand what you are saying. Like I said though, legalizing them in any way will probably do more harm than good.



Ok look GA, I give facts to back up my arguments, not mere speculation. Present some facts. Clearly your family is very religious, which is probably why you were home schooled (no, I'm not against homeschooling) and if that is true, then on moral grounds you are opposing the legalization of something that seems immoral to you, because of the culture you grew up in. But allowing something to exist under the law, is NOT an acceptance of it on a personal level. Case in point, it is perfectly LEGAL to be an atheist, but very few Americans are. The government allows atheism to exist and even be promoted. Has this made you an atheist? Has this meant that the government supports atheism as state policy for the land? It does not.

Allowing things to exist that we may oppose, does not threaten our own beliefs. On the contrary, it PROTECTS EVERYONE'S right to continue in their personal beliefs and preach the word to everyone else, freely, and without fear of reprisals or imprisonment.

The ONLY way that our own beliefs can be protected, is to extend that right to ALL beliefs, no matter how unsavory. In the end, the truth of something or the fallacy of it, eventually resonates with the hearts and minds of those who are exposed to them. We are not idiots. We can be deceived and misled at times, but eventually, when opposing views are expressed, most people find their way through, to what makes sense to them. And what feels right in their souls.

We don't need to enforce morality legally, any more than we need to enforce one religion over another. People's own excesses eventually disgust even themselves, and usually they seek another path in time. Choosing one's own path, starts with the wisdom of parents and family. Parents don't need to concede that job to the state. They need to be parents. A child is then raised with a certain viewpoint, and throughout his life is exposed to other viewpoints, so that it becomes a process of finding one's own way, which often means accepting a balance of the good we learned as children, mixed with the greater consciousness that may have been achieved on a national scale over time. Like racism. Children may have grown up with strong morals, but also racism, but through being exposed to mixed schools, and scientific reality as well as modern belief in equality, those children may hold on to "respect your elders" and "be honest" while rejecting outdated racist views.

There is a natural process in all this. The state does not have to be involved in most issues of personal morality, except where the rights of other individuals are infringed upon.

Allow us FREEDOM and most of us will find our own way to what is right, or just, or beneficial to ourselves and society as a whole in due time.

#23628 by Guitaranatomy
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:06 am
You forgot to mention the few who do not find their way and end up killing people, or just doing plain out harm to others in many ways.

First off, my family is not very religious, and that is not why I am home-schooled. I am home-schooled (Or was rather) because my living circumstances were never stable enough for me to go to public school, nor did my mother find it safe, and I am glad she pulled me out of them -it saved me from being exposed to a ton of crap.

Look, if we are going to let drugs be legal, let us make everything legal then. I like this nice view of a country with no government, it makes it so safe to live in, yeah, 300 million people with no rules... How do you people think that would turn out?

I like how people think that if the government was gone we would be in peace, my ass, lol. Screw abolishing every law, we just need some changes... Okay, we need a lot of changes...

But legalizing drugs will not help us, I still stand by what I said, that people will die at a greater rate with legalized drugs.

No I have no facts to back up my opinions, I am sorry, I do not have access to statistics like you guys seem to. I am just standing my ground on commonsense and analysis of a situation.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

#23629 by Craig Maxim
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:07 am
Irminsul wrote:

Default or nothing, the point stands. Heroin has never been legal here.




The fact that it was not illegal makes it legal Irminsul. It had to be MADE illegal because otherwise there is NO law preventing it. So there is no "default or nothing" and no, your point does NOT stand. It has to be criminalzied to make it illegal. This only occurred since 1906, when the Pure Food and Drug Act became law.

Irminsul wrote:
and I believe if it had been around in the street form it is available today, say 200 years ago, it would have been made illegal.


Like Opium? Or Cocaine? Both were household products, readily available and used widely until 1906.

Irminsul wrote:
This isn't a black or white art. There are shades of gray. Painting our nation as some ShangriLa in which everything was legal at one point is a bit disingenuous, because slavery was legal too: that didn't mean it was a moral or socially acceptable precept.


Why do you think I included the caveat "As long as you are not infringing upon the rights of others"?

Slavery is an infringement upon the rights of others.

You would be surprised how many laws would be unneccessary if just that principle was upheld.

#23630 by Felicity Chicane
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:08 am
fc
Last edited by Felicity Chicane on Thu May 15, 2008 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

#23631 by Guitaranatomy
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:10 am
It is just what this is practically turning into, and it appears to be what No Faith (Mike's) articles are talking about. How our government is screwed up and controlling, which is basically just like saying to destroy it, lol.

#23632 by Felicity Chicane
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:11 am
Wheere does it say not to have laws. Copy and paste please.

#23633 by nofaith
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:13 am
"No I have no facts to back up my opinions, I am sorry, I do not have access to statistics like you guys seem to. I am just standing my ground on commonsense and analysis of a situation."

Okay I will no longer use facts, logic and statistics to try to have you see you are wrong since it's obvious these things play no part in your world. Don't confuse you with the facts eh?

Also no one is claiming they want to live in a world with no laws, that's ridiculous. You could never have a civilized society without laws. What I am talking about is the removal of all victimless crime laws. You can't victimize yourself.

Look I have no problem if you think you need a master to run your life, but I just don't want you to think you should have the right to impose one on me. If you need a master I support your right to have one...how about you support my right not to have one?






Guitaranatomy wrote:You forgot to mention the few who do not find their way and end up killing people, or just doing plain out harm to others in many ways.

First off, my family is not very religious, and that is not why I am home-schooled. I am home-schooled (Or was rather) because my living circumstances were never stable enough for me to go to public school, nor did my mother find it safe, and I am glad she pulled me out of them -it saved me from being exposed to a ton of crap.

Look, if we are going to let drugs be legal, let us make everything legal then. I like this nice view of a country with no government, it makes it so safe to live in, yeah, 300 million people with no rules... How do you people think that would turn out?

I like how people think that if the government was gone we would be in peace, my ass, lol. Screw abolishing every law, we just need some changes... Okay, we need a lot of changes...

But legalizing drugs will not help us, I still stand by what I said, that people will die at a greater rate with legalized drugs.

No I have no facts to back up my opinions, I am sorry, I do not have access to statistics like you guys seem to. I am just standing my ground on commonsense and analysis of a situation.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

#23635 by nofaith
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:17 am
You know what this is...we have talked about it at length. It's the "I will make a nonsensical statement and see if it sticks" argument. Just like when morons always come back with "well I guess you think murder should be legal" when I say adults should have the right to do what they want as long as what they do does not harm others. They always miss the part about "as long as they do not harm others"....sad people we have become..


Felicity Chicane wrote:Who said they want no laws, I dont recall reading that anywhere. You just make this sh*t up as you go along or what?

#23636 by Craig Maxim
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:38 am
Guitaranatomy wrote: You forgot to mention the few who do not find their way and end up killing people, or just doing plain out harm to others in many ways.



There will always be people like that. Laws that protect us from infringing on the rights of others covers this. You are mixing apples and oranges now.

Guitaranatomy wrote:
my living circumstances were never stable enough for me to go to public school, nor did my mother find it safe, and I am glad she pulled me out of them -it saved me from being exposed to a ton of crap.


It may very well have, but being exposed to a "ton of crap" is also beneficial socially, as it is a child's best training ground of coming into his own, developing social skills, learning to deal with problems he will face as an adult, etc... There is nothing wrong with homeschooling, but for everything you "save" by not going to school with other kids, something is also lost. There are pros and cons to everything in life.

Guitaranatomy wrote:
Look, if we are going to let drugs be legal, let us make everything legal then. I like this nice view of a country with no government, it makes it so safe to live in, yeah, 300 million people with no rules... How do you people think that would turn out?


Your sense of moral outrage is making you irrational now. I have a strong sense of morality too. I get outraged at what I see as immorality in others or society as well, but I try to NEVER let it cloud my judgement or common sense. Too many people are so hung up on lesser issues of morality, that they become irrational. That is dangerous GA. This is what makes people murder doctors because they perform legal abortions. This is what made people hang "witches" in Salem, Mass.

Guitaranatomy wrote:
I like how people think that if the government was gone we would be in peace


You're going overboard here. No one said or suggested such a thing. It is believing in people's ability to excercise personal responsibility. People are much more capable of this, than you give them credit for. We learn by making mistakes. Sociologists understand this, even parents generally understand this, by allowing children to take risks like climbiing trees and riding bikes. Somehow this gets lost down the line, when a basic truth of our childhood, is suddenly rejected by trying to FORCE people not to make mistakes.

And the government cannot provide us "peace" whether by the governments presence or absence. The largest single reason the world does not have peace, and nations and communities do not always have peace, is that few of us have peace on a personal level in our own souls. The solution to world peace, is developing personal peace.



Guitaranatomy wrote:

But legalizing drugs will not help us, I still stand by what I said, that people will die at a greater rate with legalized drugs.

No I have no facts to back up my opinions, I am sorry, I do not have access to statistics like you guys seem to. I am just standing my ground on commonsense and analysis of a situation.



Well, you are standing on shifting sand and not solid ground, when your "common sense" disputes facts. Facts ARE reality. They are what "IS". The interpretation of facts, leaves room for debate, to be sure. But alcohol consumption rising when prohibition is instituted and lowering when it is repealed, leaves little to be interpreted.

Other drugs are no different.

Some people will take things to excess and harm themselves whether it is shooting heroin or sniffing glue. They need the guidance and support of family, friends and professionals. Drug laws, do not make people more or less responsible human beings. People are irresponsible for many reasons, whether from upbringing, lack of a support structure or mental illness. Laws do not change human nature.

Laws are a necessary tool, like laws against slavery, child labor laws, because there are always people who will abuse others for their own gain or enjoyment, and there need to be penalties to deal with such issues.

While no one here believes as you suggest, that ALL laws are unecessary and should be revoked, YOU do seem to believe that before the Pure Food and Drug Act was passed, the world lived in chaos with people dying of drug overdoses on every street corner. This simply has never been the case.

Try to seperate your moral outrage, from what logic dictates. Logic and morality can co-exist, but not at the expense of the other. We need both, and tragedy is usally the result whenever EITHER is taken to an extreme.

#23637 by gbheil
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:45 am
I cant believe I've missed five pages of this. I,m still at Personal responsability and liberty AMEN.

#23639 by Craig Maxim
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:48 am
nofaith wrote:Craig, very impressive! You "get it"..you should wear that fact like a badge of honor my friend, very few people do "get it".



Well, people are often motivated by true concern, for themselves and for society at large, but when logic takes a vacation, it benefits no one, and unfortunately, the very thing they are trying to "save" us from, they end up unwittingly making worse, and bringing even more problems with it.

#23640 by Craig Maxim
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:49 am
sanshouheil wrote:I cant believe I've missed five pages of this. I,m still at Personal responsability and liberty AMEN.



Well, that was a good place to leave off.

I agree with both! LOL ;-)

#23641 by Craig Maxim
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:51 am
nofaith wrote:
My great grandmother used to tell me how when she was a child her mother would send her to the drug store for morphine.



Wait a minute!

You mean she didn't become a drug addict and overdose on the way back home?

Probably an exception to the rule, huh GA? ;-)
#23644 by fisherman bob
Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:20 am
This is what we should do to solve the drug problem. We legalize ALL drugs. That's right, legalize all drugs. Then we add this caveat to all other crimes. If somebody is covicted of a federal crime (murder, rape, burglary, etc.) and they test positive for any previously illegal drug AND/OR alcohol, then whatever the sentence they receive is DOUBLED with NO CHANCE FOR PAROLE. That's right. Commit a crime while on any drug (other than perscription meds) and your sentence is doubled. This way those people who responsibly use marijuana are NOT imprisoned. All drugs can be sold (and many millions of sales tax dollars collected on) at drug stores. The drugs will not be contaminated or fake. Minors will not have the right to buy or sell drugs, just like tobacco. The many millions of tax dollars collected will be used for education of our youth, warning them about the dangers of drugs, just as we try and educate them about tobacco and alcohol today. All the gang warfare and endangering our law enforcement personnel will most likely be substantially reduced. More people who act irresponsibly on drugs will be in prison. Responsible individuals will not be in prison. I think we are losing the"war on drugs" now. We need to face the reality that drugs are very easily obtainable. Why not put people who commit real crimes against people and/or property away for good. The recidivism rate for released prisoners is extremely high because they go out and get drugged up and commit crimes. More of those people will stay much longer in prison with doubled sentences and NO PAROLE. Just my take on this, hope someday to see legislation like this to try and reduce drug use. Later...

#23645 by Irminsul
Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:35 am
Craig Maxim wrote:The fact that it was not illegal makes it legal Irminsul. It had to be MADE illegal because otherwise there is NO law preventing it. So there is no "default or nothing" and no, your point does NOT stand. It has to be criminalzied to make it illegal. This only occurred since 1906, when the Pure Food and Drug Act became law.


Logical fallacy. Following that line of thinking, nuclear waste was legal to store in your backyard in the 1700s.

The fact that it wasn't AROUND then makes the point moot. I said that had it (heroin) been around then, they surely would have done something about it because of the residual crime that surrounds it.

Craig wrote:Like Opium? Or Cocaine? Both were household products, readily available and used widely until 1906.


Yeah, until they figured out that people stoned to the heavens on the stuff do harmful things to other people.

Craig wrote:
Why do you think I included the caveat "As long as you are not infringing upon the rights of others"?

Slavery is an infringement upon the rights of others.


A heroin addict breaking into my home to steal sh*t to support their habit sure is infringing upon a few rights. And please don't pretend that that is not a primary behavior of the heroin addict.

Craig wrote:You would be surprised how many laws would be unneccessary if just that principle was upheld.


Is this the same person who defended the Patriot Act and intrusions upon American citizens, earlier?

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