General Music Chat

You would be wrong. Up until the 1920's Heroin as well as many other opiates were not only legal, but you did not even need a prescription for them. My great grandmother used to tell me how when she was a child her mother would send her to the drug store for morphine.

Totally new? You do realize that drugs were not always illegal in this country right?

Depends on which drug you mean. Pot and it's cousin, hemp, used to be not only legal but a cash crop encouraged by the founders.

I don't believe heroin has ever been legal in this nation.

It will kill more people if it was legal, as you knew I was going to say. It will, because then it would be flying off the shelves. People would easily OD, now they do not have to go and contact their sources to get the drugs.

That is FACTUALLY innacurate!

Read my post just before this one.

Legalizing drugs, well you don't have to legalize them, just decriminalize them, is a BENEFIT to society. I know it seems weird, but it is true.

There would be LESS crime, not more, simply because the drugs would be cheaper and much of the enormous profits would be reduced to a very nominal one, which means less gang violence over the issue, and probably even less robery to pay for a habit that used to be much more expensive. And for certain, there would be MORE prison space available for those that really need to be there. Murderes, rapists, child molestors, etc...

Not to mention that kids who were just experimenting with drugs on occassion, would not have criminal records any more, while they worked out what they really want their lives to be about.

Give people more credit. They often pull themselves out of despairing situations, and I believe they could do that more easily, by NOT having criminal records around their necks and an entire culture, that makes them reprobates for doing what some of the FOUNDING FATHERS themselves did, namely use drugs on occassion.

Once you are pegged as a criminal, a reprobate, caught up in an underground culture that makes you go to dangerous and unseemly areas to get drugs, and you are being put in jails and then prisons, it just spirals down from there. You are worthless in some of society's minds, why improve? Why try to pull yourself out of it? You have a criminal record now, making getting good jobs more difficult. Your life is far more set, in a bad way, in this scenario, and for what? Experimenting with drugs? For using, maybe even less potent drugs than normal American housewives used to get at a pharmacy or through mail order, when they used to call it "medicine"?

Hard to escape from that label. And from the criminal record attached to it. If you are not violent, and not infringing on the rights of others, which there are already laws to protect against, then why should you become a criminal for doing what you choose for yourself personally, in the privacy of your own home?

Legal Morphine?

Damn, lol.

As for the articles you got on there, No Faith, or Mike... Um, it is fascinating. The statistics do so some insane things, lol. I think the prisons are over crowded, and they do put people in jail for nonviolent crimes, and they put them in there for a long time! Let us put the real offenders, the murders, stalkers, rapists, and people of that magnitude in there for a long time. Those are the people who deserve to be put away, that is for sure. I mean, I think if anyone does something illegal they should go to jail (Depending on the crime of course), but there needs to be a better form of control as to reduce the monetary figures you showed, and reduce the populations in the prisons.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

Correct again!


Despite the explosive expansion of government to fight the war on drugs, drug use is more prevalent today than it was before the war on drugs started. Additionally, drugs are cheaper, more potent and easier to get than they were in the early years of the drug war. Throwing more money at the issue has not resulted in fewer people using drugs. Even the federal government admits drug use has increased recently from 6% in 1993 to over 8% in 2003. Despite the frantically increasing efforts to curb the flow of drugs, high school students report drugs are still easy to obtain. Almost 90% of twelfth graders report marijuana is "very easy" or "fairly easy" to get. Over 47% of twelfth graders say cocaine is "very easy" or "fairly easy" to get and more than 32% say heroin is "very easy" or "fairly easy" to get. I have had clients tell me they became addicted to drugs when they were in prison. Even in a prison setting, drugs are prevalent.

In the mid-1960s, just before the government declared war on amphetamines, the average user swallowed his pills, which were of medicinal purity and potency. Snorting and smoking stimulants was almost unheard of, and very few users injected intravenously. Today, 40 years later, snorting, smoking, and injecting methamphetamines of unpredictable potency and dubious purity has become the norm—with all the dreadful health consequences. If the current scene illustrates how the government is winning the war on drugs, I'd hate to see what losing looks like. See www.slate.com/id/2123838 August 3, 2005.


In case you are unaware, the government decided in 1919 to amend the United States Constitution to grant power to Congress to prohibit the manufacture, sale and distribution of alcohol. Their drug war played out just like ours; a complete and total disaster. However, it was the best thing that ever happened to organized crime. The manufacture, sale and distribution of alcohol were conducted entirely in illegal and violent markets. Criminals prospered and criminal organizations grew. A major crime wave began in the 1920s and continually increased until the end of prohibition in 1933 when it immediately started to reverse. Prohibition did nothing to curb the desire of people to use alcohol. Indeed, both the per capita consumption of alcohol as well as the rate of alcoholism increased during prohibition. Illegal clandestine stills manufactured alcohol of inconsistent and unpredictable quality. Law enforcement was overwhelmed chasing after people involved in alcohol-related crimes. Does any of this seem familiar to you?

In 1933, they figured it out and repealed the 18th Amendment. To be fair, we still have people with substantial alcohol abuse problems. It is a real problem. We have no shortage of alcohol-related crimes. However, violent criminal street gangs do not make money from the sale of alcohol. Although few people “home brew” alcoholic beverages, people do not brew alcoholic beverages in clandestine labs. Nobody is offered large cash rewards to transport alcohol. The Budweiser guy doesn’t fight the Miller guy if they both happen to arrive at the store at the same time to deliver their drug. Alcohol companies settle disputes peacefully in court. Alcoholics can seek help without the fear of criminal prosecutions. More resources can be devoted to apprehending real thugs because our justice system is not overloaded with cases of people manufacturing, distributing or selling alcohol. Isn’t this obviously a better deal?

It will kill more people if it was legal, as you knew I was going to say. It will, because then it would be flying off the shelves. People would easily OD, now they do not have to go and contact their sources to get the drugs.

That is FACTUALLY innacurate!

Read my post just before this one.

Legalizing drugs, well you don't have to legalize them, just decriminalize them, is a BENEFIT to society. I know it seems weird, but it is true.

There would be LESS crime, not more, simply because the drugs would be cheaper and much of the enormous profits would be reduced to a very nominal one, which means less gang violence over the issue, and probably even less robery to pay for a habit that used to be much more expensive. And for certain, there would be MORE prison space available for those that really need to be there. Murderes, rapists, child molestors, etc...

Not to mention that kids who were just experimenting with drugs on occassion, would not have criminal records any more, while they worked out what they really want their lives to be about.

Give people more credit. They often pull themselves out of despairing situations, and I believe they could do that more easily, by NOT having criminal records around their necks and an entire culture, that makes them reprobates for doing what some of the FOUNDING FATHERS themselves did, namely use drugs on occassion.

Once you are pegged as a criminal, a reprobate, caught up in an underground culture that makes you go to dangerous and unseemly areas to get drugs, and you are being put in jails and then prisons, it just spirals down from there. You are worthless in some of society's minds, why improve? Why try to pull yourself out of it? You have a criminal record now, making getting good jobs more difficult. Your life is far more set, in a bad way, in this scenario, and for what? Experimenting with drugs? For using, maybe even less potent drugs than normal American housewives used to get at a pharmacy or through mail order, when they used to call it "medicine"?

Hard to escape from that label. And from the criminal record attached to it. If you are not violent, and not infringing on the rights of others, which there are already laws to protect against, then why should you become a criminal for doing what you choose for yourself personally, in the privacy of your own home?

Yes, but as long as the jails are filled with pot smokers, real criminals will continue to walk. Yes statistics are a great thing, too bad more people do not look at them.

Legal Morphine?

Damn, lol.

As for the articles you got on there, No Faith, or Mike... Um, it is fascinating. The statistics do so some insane things, lol. I think the prisons are over crowded, and they do put people in jail for nonviolent crimes, and they put them in there for a long time! Let us put the real offenders, the murders, stalkers, rapists, and people of that magnitude in there for a long time. Those are the people who deserve to be put away, that is for sure. I mean, I think if anyone does something illegal they should go to jail (Depending on the crime of course), but there needs to be a better form of control as to reduce the monetary figures you showed, and reduce the populations in the prisons.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

Craig, I understand what you are saying. Like I said though, legalizing them in any way will probably do more harm than good. These kids are not as aware as you think, they go into these spirals and then really crash. I have never seen one get themselves out of it, they just keep going downhill. Unless it is pot, that they seem to quit fairly easily.

On the other hand, we are going to need to do something to straighten out the people in this country, everyone is so screwed up.

Look, we can all keep hashing this debate back and forth, no one is really getting anywhere. I am learning some interesting faqs, and history, but yeah, it is just not going anywhere.

I will give you a real debate, what to do with these damn people in Hollywood, like Paris Hilton, who walk around and are bad influences on our children...

Now that is a debate. I say we should empty the jails of these drug offenders and throw them (Hollywood) in there, with Bush and his people, and Congress, lmao.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

I don't believe heroin has ever been legal in this nation.

By default, ALL drugs used to be legal here, before they were criminalized. Traditionally what happened, was that drugs were discovered or created, and used as "medicines" and sometimes they were criminalized one by one after a certain measure of time. Regulation was deemed neccessary, because sometimes potentially fatal elements were mixed in with the "medicine" like mercury for example, and it ended up making people sick or killing them.

The drug act that FelicityChicane speaks of gave more of a blanket effect to this (if I am not mistaken) so that now drugs do not neccessarily have to be named to be illegal, but pretty much ANY substance which alters consciousness, or whatever the criteria is, is pretty much illegal by default, whether specifically indentified or not. I'll have to cheeck into this, but it is something along those lines, if memory serves.

fc

I will give you a real debate, what to do with these damn people in Hollywood, like Paris Hilton, who walk around and are bad influences on our children...


It's called parenting. What other fools do should not have a damn thing to do with me or my kids and I damn sure would not want the government passing more laws. It's called being a responsible parent...period. Stop looking for the government to solve all your problems and take responsiblity for yourself...try being free for a change and not a slave.

Craig, I understand what you are saying. Like I said though, legalizing them in any way will probably do more harm than good. These kids are not as aware as you think, they go into these spirals and then really crash. I have never seen one get themselves out of it, they just keep going downhill. Unless it is pot, that they seem to quit fairly easily.

On the other hand, we are going to need to do something to straighten out the people in this country, everyone is so screwed up.

Look, we can all keep hashing this debate back and forth, no one is really getting anywhere. I am learning some interesting faqs, and history, but yeah, it is just not going anywhere.

I will give you a real debate, what to do with these damn people in Hollywood, like Paris Hilton, who walk around and are bad influences on our children...

Now that is a debate. I say we should empty the jails of these drug offenders and throw them (Hollywood) in there, with Bush and his people, and Congress, lmao.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

I got to agree with that one, we could use better parents. But we could use a little government intervention with some of these people, just so there is justice. A lot of these stars (Although not so much lately) get away with murder practically, it is annoying. So the government could fix that, or should try. However, with how corrupt this government is, I would not be shocked if they could just be paid off to be silenced.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

HMMMMMM, I am not getting through to you my friend, so I will stop wasting my time. Spend some time asking if you own yourself, and if not, who does?

I will leave you with this, although I really don't think it will help:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/shaffer9.html

I got to agree with that one, we could use better parents. But we could use a little government intervention with some of these people, just so there is justice. A lot of these stars (Although not so much lately) get away with murder practically, it annoying. So the government could fix that, or should try. However, with how corrupt this government is, I would not be shocked if they could just be paid off to be silenced.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

By default, ALL drugs used to be legal here, before they were criminalized. Traditionally what happened, was that drugs were discovered or created, and used as "medicines" and sometimes they were criminalized one by one after a certain measure of time. Regulation was deemed neccessary, because sometimes potentially fatal elements were mixed in with the "medicine" like mercury for example, and it ended up making people sick or killing them.

Default or nothing, the point stands. Heroin has never been legal here, and I believe if it had been around in the street form it is available today, say 200 years ago, it would have been made illegal.

This isn't a black or white art. There are shades of gray. Painting our nation as some ShangriLa in which everything was legal at one point is a bit disingenuous, because slavery was legal too: that didn't mean it was a moral or socially acceptable precept.

Wrong once again, Heroin was not always illegal here, do some homework before you make statements that are factually wrong. Also morality is subjective and should have nothing to do with deciding if something should be legal or not. Something can be "immoral" while at the same time should be totally legal...like prostitution for example.

By default, ALL drugs used to be legal here, before they were criminalized. Traditionally what happened, was that drugs were discovered or created, and used as "medicines" and sometimes they were criminalized one by one after a certain measure of time. Regulation was deemed neccessary, because sometimes potentially fatal elements were mixed in with the "medicine" like mercury for example, and it ended up making people sick or killing them.

Default or nothing, the point stands. Heroin has never been legal here, and I believe if it had been around in the street form it is available today, say 200 years ago, it would have been made illegal.

This isn't a black or white art. There are shades of gray. Painting our nation as some ShangriLa in which everything was legal at one point is a bit disingenuous, because slavery was legal too: that didn't mean it was a moral or socially acceptable precept.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4647018.stm

Craig, I understand what you are saying. Like I said though, legalizing them in any way will probably do more harm than good.

Ok look GA, I give facts to back up my arguments, not mere speculation. Present some facts. Clearly your family is very religious, which is probably why you were home schooled (no, I'm not against homeschooling) and if that is true, then on moral grounds you are opposing the legalization of something that seems immoral to you, because of the culture you grew up in. But allowing something to exist under the law, is NOT an acceptance of it on a personal level. Case in point, it is perfectly LEGAL to be an atheist, but very few Americans are. The government allows atheism to exist and even be promoted. Has this made you an atheist? Has this meant that the government supports atheism as state policy for the land? It does not.

Allowing things to exist that we may oppose, does not threaten our own beliefs. On the contrary, it PROTECTS EVERYONE'S right to continue in their personal beliefs and preach the word to everyone else, freely, and without fear of reprisals or imprisonment.

The ONLY way that our own beliefs can be protected, is to extend that right to ALL beliefs, no matter how unsavory. In the end, the truth of something or the fallacy of it, eventually resonates with the hearts and minds of those who are exposed to them. We are not idiots. We can be deceived and misled at times, but eventually, when opposing views are expressed, most people find their way through, to what makes sense to them. And what feels right in their souls.

We don't need to enforce morality legally, any more than we need to enforce one religion over another. People's own excesses eventually disgust even themselves, and usually they seek another path in time. Choosing one's own path, starts with the wisdom of parents and family. Parents don't need to concede that job to the state. They need to be parents. A child is then raised with a certain viewpoint, and throughout his life is exposed to other viewpoints, so that it becomes a process of finding one's own way, which often means accepting a balance of the good we learned as children, mixed with the greater consciousness that may have been achieved on a national scale over time. Like racism. Children may have grown up with strong morals, but also racism, but through being exposed to mixed schools, and scientific reality as well as modern belief in equality, those children may hold on to "respect your elders" and "be honest" while rejecting outdated racist views.

There is a natural process in all this. The state does not have to be involved in most issues of personal morality, except where the rights of other individuals are infringed upon.

Allow us FREEDOM and most of us will find our own way to what is right, or just, or beneficial to ourselves and society as a whole in due time.