General Music Chat

in other words if you have a family.. no work skills or letters after your name it would be in your best interests to join the armed forces if you "REALLY" want to get into the country...

I know where you are coming from, that this seems so insidious, but from a rational perspective, it really isn't.


Any country wants immigrants that will add something to the value of the country, not take away from it. If you are seeking political asylum, there is an overriding sense of urgency and importance, and you can just get to our shores, and it doesn't much matter what your skills are.

But for others, why should a government assume a burden from outside of it's borders? People who bring more value to the country, will get to the front of the line faster. Why should that be surprising?

Many countries REQUIRE military service for a number of years at a certain age. It is NOT optional. But in this country, it is.

Accepting the risk of defending this nation, and it's policies which are sometimes enforced militarily, proves a high level of committment and provides a high value to the country. Why shouldn't they be moved to the front of the line for accepting it?

And why shouldn't the governement alert them, that if they choose this level of committment, it would provide a quicker route to what they want? It is still a choice. No immigrant is forced to accept this path.

We don't owe the world citizenship in this country. It is a privilege, not a right.

Sickening isn't it. Another great gift of the Bush Reich.

This gets old.

Vietnam was a much more questionable endeavor than Iraq. No draft has been instituted for this war, but one was for Vietnam.

Ahhh... Vietnam...

Was that the Truman Reich, Eisenhower Reich, Kennedy Reich, Johnson Reich, Nixon Reich, and Ford Reich?

All these presidents were involved in funding Vietnam and then the escalation of it, through to it's conclusion. By my count, 3 Democrats and 3 Republicans.

That's a long ass Reich isn't it? Much worse than a single presidency of Bush, wouldn't you say? You should be MASSIVELY outraged at that conspiring lot, huh?.... but alas no, you won't be. Much easier to hate one single president who appears clueless at times, compared to the supposedly superior intellects of the 6 mentioned above. They should have been smart enough to know better, shouldn't they? One would think that you would be MUCH more angry at them, who should know better, compared to a bumbling chap like Bush, who may not.

But malice is not always a logical business, is it?

I was perhaps 13 yrs old before I (or most any body else in the United States) even knew of the existence of Vietnam. I became aware of the turmoil due to the fact that my mother gave me a subscription to Life magazine, which became my "window to the world".

There is more then enough "oversimplified political conspiracy theories" to go around, and I certainly don't wish to add to the confusion. I try to respect every ones point of view when it comes to "religion and politics" ,but I do feel an urge to back up Craig Maxum's statements concerning past American administrations recklessly meddling in foreign affairs, to the disadvantage of all parties involved. The Dinh Diem-Kennedy relationship is one very good case in point!

I.A,

"Me and a hundred more
to America sailed or
Our fortunes to be makin' we were thinkin'

But when we landed in yankeeland
placed a rifle in me hand
sayin' 'Paddy must go and fight for Lincoln' ".

This is the third verse from one of my favorite old Irish American folk songs,"Bye the Hush" (it was covered by Sinead O Conner and Linda Thomson, among many others) Sad to think that little has changed in the last 150 years!
Sad story, but thanks for the tellin'.

John

very true howlin...i did a little searching online into the history of my name in american...by the by my name is "Anthony Hoey'...the "Hoey' name is gaelic and spelled "O,hoecaidh" but my name in english is "Hoey" its not a very common name even in ireland and it goes back to the "dun ri" and the "Hoey" clan were one of the most powerfull tribes in ireland at one stage...it also shows on my coat of arms..its a crown with a two handed sword on top.......
well i looked at the list of people who fought in the civil war here in the states and imagine my surpise to find that 'Hoeys' fought on both sides of the american civil war....it was more to do with where they landed in the states as to which side they were fighting for...but let it be know that even my ancesters fought in the american civil war...the trouble is they fought on both sides....so i dont know how much it helped...but there ya have it.

Bush is simply the most unabashedly worst of the lot. He truly deserves to be frogmarched into a world court, along with Dick Cheney and a host of others for what they have done.

Pointing out the excesses of his predessecors is no argument. It is a facile equivocation.

...but let it be know that even my ancesters fought in the american civil war...the trouble is they fought on both sides....so i dont know how much it helped...but there ya have it.

That was pretty much par for the course Anthony. That war was famous as "brother against brother". More Americans died in this war than any other (620,000). This was not unexpected of course, since we were fighting ourselves.

And interestingly enough, this war was inspired from political disagreements. Abraham Lincoln, and his Republican party (yes, the Republicans) came to power, which the South knew, meant that they would cease the expansion of slavery. There would be NO NEW slave states under a Republican administration. This did not sit well with the south, who seceded from the union in protest, and began the bloodiest war America has ever known.

So, for all America's "war mongering" history, this country has people willing to fight and die for their beliefs, and even if it is amongst ourselves, we have shown the courage and perseverance to survive such struggles, reunite and be made stronger as a nation, and even with higher values in place as a result.

War is not ideal, as a means of solving problems, but the fact remains that possibly NO WAR could have been avoided by talking, ABSENT the threat of force. Malicious agendas will ALWAYS be seen through to conclusion, when there is not some FORCE to oppose them. That is the sad fact of human nature.

However, people who are free to make their own choices, and have the ability to live outside of poverty, if the economy of a nation provides such opportunity, are far less intent on going to war, as they are in improving their own personal circumstances and that of their family.

Democracy is the BEST potential for such people that has ever existed.

Our Declaration of Independence states as follows...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Freedom is a "RIGHT" according to this document. And because this "RIGHT" is granted by God himself, there is NO MAN or NO GOVERNMENT which has the power or authority to deny anyone (anyone in the world) that right.

Some of you are gonna love this (sarcasm alert)...

"This justifies, in my mind and soul, ANY action, military or otherwise, with the end result being the liberation of enslaved people, who are not permitted to govern themselves."

ANY system of government, which does not have self-governance at it's root, is WRONG, EVIL and according to our own nation's founding documents, against God.

Personal liberty, the right to live your own life and direct your own path, is at the very HEART of what this nation believes in and stands for. It is the single greatest driving force the world has ever known for good. It is what makes America great, and unique among ALL other nations and political systems throughout history.

Any person, any group and any government that would stand in the way of the realization of that goal, should be vigorously opposed, whether it is the religious right, an opposing political system, a country's historic social or religious culture, terrorist organizations, religiously controlled governments, or anything else which would stand in it's way.

The only hope the world has of lasting peace, happiness and prosperity, is for the world as a whole, to be brought into the modern age, under the banner of Democracy.

Bush is simply the most unabashedly worst of the lot. He truly deserves to be frogmarched into a world court, along with Dick Cheney and a host of others for what they have done.

Pointing out the excesses of his predessecors is no argument. It is a facile equivocation.

A war that spanned 6 presidents and literally FORCED through a draft, it's citizens to participate personally in it, is merely an "excess"?

LOL

Your hatred has blinded you to logic.


How do you feel about the Teddy Roosevelt reich? Columbia would not sell us the land to build the panama canal, and so Teddy basically told the Panamanians "Don't you want to free yourself from Columbia and have your own country? Well, you declare independence and we'll send our warships to Columbia to prevent it's army from mobilizing, we'll recognize your new government, and even go ahead and pay you 10 million dollars up-front, for your allowing us to control the panama canal that we will build!"

That military endeavor had a much more dubious motive than the Iraq war did.

I could quote from history probably a dozen more.

But no...

Let's put Bush in front of the firing squad.

Somehow he has to be the worst of the lot, doesn't he?

You'll look more and more foolish as we progress with this. You have bought into the brainwashing of the major media, without really thinking it all through logically, using critical thought and historical facts.

I can sit here quite easily, and blame Bush for what he really deserves, without stooping to blinding hatred, which confuses the real issues, and allows the hater to suspend critical thought, even to the point of buying into the most absurd conspiracy theories.

apparently was Saddam pretending he had them, not to make the United States afraid to attack, but to make Iran afraid to attack Iraq. Ever since the war with Iran, Iraq fully expected another war to happen with Iran. Saddam faked having WMD's. He never expected the United States to have the balls to actually attack. Harry Truman had even a lower public opinion while in power than George W Bush has. Now Truman is considered one of the great presidents we ever had. I'm not saying Bush will ever be considered a great president, but sometimes time has a way of proving that a President actually did a much beter job than we think he has done to this point. I agree with Craig about the "looney" conspiracy theories. I don't believe that the United States caused 9/11 in any way. There had been hundreds of terror attacks all over the world before and after 9/11. Did we cause all those attacks? Are we responsible for all those attacks? I haven't heard of a single terror/suicide attack by a non-Muslim directed against a Muslim. I haven't heard of a single Christian having his head cut off by another Christian because he converted to Islam. The Muslim fundamentalists have had a singular history of slaughtring those around them who they considered infidels. They call themselves "men of peace." With "men of peace" who needs "men of war?" What would have happend if the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 had succeeded in toppling the twin towers? Would Clinton have done anything more than he did about it? Probably not. I personally think Bush has done a reputable job and history will be kinder to him down the road. The war against terror is far from over. There most certainly will be more attacks against our country. The Israelis went into Syria a year and a half ago and apparently destroyed a Syrian nuclear facility. We have to understand the Muslim sentiment to destroy Israel is not going to go away. The powers in the Middle East HAVE TO GET TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE and stop fighting. Everyone should look to the peace in Ireland. It took decades of fighting there until the parties FINALLY REALIZED THAT THEY HAD TO STOP. Now Ireland is per capita the strongest economic power in Europe. Imagine how wonderful it would be if peace came to the Middle East? The tourist trade alone would make the Middle East the richest land on Earth. PRAY that war ends now. Later...

Come on people, 500 words or less.

Verbose will not get you read, it will get you skimmed.

Bob,

All very valid points. I think you are probably right in your entire summary.

The only dispute I would have, is that centuries ago, Christians basically did torture or kill those who adopted other faiths or would not convert, or belonged to supposedly "heretical" faiths like gee... Protestants. The Spanish Inquisition is the most famous incident of this. Clearly in the modern world, things have changed, which is exactly why I stated before that the WORLD needs to be brought into the modern era. Muslim extremists it seems, are all too happy to make use of the technological benefits of the modern era, while maintaining philosophies and cultural beliefs that belong more to the Middle Ages.

Let's put Bush in front of the firing squad..

Fine with me. I want a front row seat.

Let's put Bush in front of the firing squad..

Fine with me. I want a front row seat.

Damn Irminsul.

You ARE consistent. I'll give you that. LOL


btw... Ralph Nader has just entered the presidential race. There is a slight possibility that this could tip the scales to Repulicans. If I was a Democrat I'd be pissed. He already stole one election away from the Dems.

But, I think Obama is a more desireable candidate to people than Gore was back then though. I bet Nader has less of an impact this time around. I don't think anyone has forgotten the lesson of the 2000 election. And are unlikely to repeat it.

Let's put Bush in front of the firing squad..

Fine with me. I want a front row seat.

No, a front seat and you could get blood all over yourself, well, depending on how far away you are. Hmm... Just wear a raincoat, just in case some of the blood splatters. I, for one, am selling tickets... Could make a lot of money on this, especially in other countries with how much they dislike him... Lmao.

As for Ralph Nader, yeah Craig, people are pissed, lol. My grandfather was not happy about it either. I do not care that he is running really, I guess I dislike all of the candidates, period. I rather vote for her compared to Obama though. If he wins I am definitely not voting, lol.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

Thank You Irish Anthony for coming to America and welcome.
The Irish people were some of the most hated immigrants in the "socially concious" North in the 1850s and 1860s. Many Irishmen distinguised themselves during th American Civil War brave proud men who were fighting for a better life. Its just too bad that they fought predominitly for the wrong side. The Fedralists, who gave rise to the oppressive federal government system we now labor under. The southern states whom were fighting to maintain states rights vs fedralism were much closer to the original intent of the American Constatution. And yes this war as all are was about economics. Anyone whom believes that the slave issue was anything more than propiganda is incapable of processing the tons of historical facts that are available. Dont get me wrong slavery in any form is wrong. But the reality was it was only a minor issue more connected to economics that human rights.

thank you very much for the warm welcome sanshouheil...your a gentleman and a scollar as we say back home...and your bang on about us irish being hated every where we went...alot of people dont understand that at the time of the "potato famine" in ireland half of the entire population died...that is why the exodus of the irish came about it was a straight choice.. stay in ireland and die of get out of ireland and try and live....irish people who had enough money could try and make the trip across the atlantic on what were called "death ships" in the worst conditions you could imagine...four and a half months of tryin to stay alive while most around you are dead or dying....
and then if you make the passage(and it was a 50/50 chance)you fall off the ship close to death with nothing but the rags on your back only to be put on another ship and sent to fight for lincon....
three square meals and a sign on bonus was more than enough to recruit the starving irish who had a choice to live and fight or try and scrape a living on the very hard streets.

and it was the same in england...there was a whole regiment of "irish rangers" and many more irish men who fought for queen and country but the view of most english people was that the "irish" were nothing more than savage thugs..
they used to place signs over half-way houses in england that read...
"NO BLACKS,NO DOGS,NO IRISH"...

and john lydon of the sex pistols named his bio... NO IRISH,NO DOGS,NO BLACKS...his little spin on the theme..due to his irish parents

but im glad to report that the dark old days of the down troden..paddy or thick mick type of irish sh*t is no more....i mean its almost st patricks day when the whole world is irish for the day....its my first in the states and i cant wait