General Music Chat

the government does not "hoard" ammo of any type, although they do need to stockpile and use munitions of all types for various reasons... none of them likely being the use on its own citizenry... I was a federal GAO auditor for several years (not the IRS kind by the kind that audited various government programs looking for waste and excess spending, etc.) and I was responsible for auditing the military munitions procurement program that was operated from the Rock Island Arsenal. The purchasing programs are based on certain levels of consumption during times of peace and times of conflict and to maintain certain stockpile levels at all times. Given the current global conflicts as well as the pending positions we may be soon involved in, the use (training and combat) has increased the government demand dramatically... as a result, the shortage of ammunition is more likely the result of manufacturers making a conscious decision NOT to ramp up production to meet the higher demand because they are not interested in investing additional capital in order to be able to meet that higher demand for an industry that the government is threatening to shut down (or at least control/take over)... the hollow point shortage is likely tied into this from the fact that the profits reaped from federal government contracts vastly outweigh the profits from consumer sales and if their is higher demand from both sides of the equation the manufacturers are more likely to devote their resources to satisfy the needs of the government before the needs of the consumer.

Ok. So if I buy into that, are the following two points fraudulent? I have a great distrust for this regime, but only based on it's lies and behavior towards American citizens and their destruction of our constitutional rights. They are liars and con men, wanna be dictators and thieves, power hungry and ruthless. But then I guess I should trust them. After all we elected them to preserve our freedom and our constitution.

#1 The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use in international warfare of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body.

Why does Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
Lee DeCovnick

#2 The Department of Homeland Security has purchased 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition- that is not a typo -- during the last six months. This includes 450 million rounds of .40 hollow point, 200 million rounds of .223 rifle ammunition, and 176,000 rounds of .308 168-grain hollow point boat tail (HPBT) that is used almost exclusively as ammo for sniper rifles.

From beforeitsnews.com we read:

Why is everyone all up in arms about the recent purchase by Homeland security of 1.4 Billion rounds of ammunition?

Our undeclared Foreign War in Iraq Consumes about 70,000,000 (70 Million) Rounds of Ammunition Each Year, which would take about 20 years to consume 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition ordered by the Department of Homeland Security alone, not including all the ammunition ordered by the weather service, Social Security, etc! 20 Years To Use All 1.4 Billion Rounds Of This Ammo?

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/201 ... ition.html

Slacker is spot on. Hollow points are used neither for training nor combat. DHS is now claiming they haven't taken delivery of the ammo. Could that have gone to the 'civilian force that should be as large and well armed as the military' - the video of Zero saying this is all over YouTube if you care to back check me.

The last installation manufacturing lead bullets has closed as well. Most all bullets are lead or partially so. Virtually all training ammo is lead. Maybe we'll get our ammo from China? That's where we get a lot of the chips we use in weapons systems - the kind of chips that can carry malware - as Russia found out recently.

It's hard not to see this as a move toward disarming the American people which is the last needed prerequisite to turning this country into something awful.

Talbot

I have no more trust in the current class of clowns than you do (in fact, given the recent twists in leadership, abuse of authority and complete lack of oversight and responsibility, I trust the great BO and his band of buffoons less than I've trusted any other group before), but I can not attest to the accuracy of the comments that you've made. However, the only question that I ask, as a follow on is whether or not the Hague Convention of "1899" which references "international warfare" is applicable to "homeland" security... likely another loop hole in the system. I have been away from the GAO for sometime now, but I do recall that one of the issues that we raised was in fact the question of the stockpiles of ammunitions being compiled... I am growing more interested in the topic based on your comments and will have to dig deeper. thanks for the follow-up.

I have no more trust in the current class of clowns than you do (in fact, given the recent twists in leadership, abuse of authority and complete lack of oversight and responsibility, I trust the great BO and his band of buffoons less than I've trusted any other group before), but I can not attest to the accuracy of the comments that you've made. However, the only question that I ask, as a follow on is whether or not the Hague Convention of "1899" which references "international warfare" is applicable to "homeland" security... likely another loop hole in the system. I have been away from the GAO for sometime now, but I do recall that one of the issues that we raised was in fact the question of the stockpiles of ammunitions being compiled... I am growing more interested in the topic based on your comments and will have to dig deeper. thanks for the follow-up.

Many policing agencies use hollow points. They are used against civilians. Almost every government agency has its own SWAT teams. Why? Including Homeland lack of security. I'm with Mike on this one. They couldn't take our guns so they cut off our ammo.

The NRA did an article on the effect of hollow points fired from a pistol. According to their ballistics on jell pistol, fired hollow points do little more damage than a standard target bullet. However that is not so from a hollow point fired from a rifle.

The article is in the 2013 June issue.

Police use hollow point and flat tip bullets because they are easily stopped by structures. A target round will go through your house wall and most likely through the neighbors walls, as I understand it.

In this I would have to assume that the regime hollow points are for those of us who do not give praise and glory to the regime for destroying America.

the government does not "hoard" ammo of any type, although they do need to stockpile and use munitions of all types for various reasons... none of them likely being the use on its own citizenry... I was a federal GAO auditor for several years (not the IRS kind by the kind that audited various government programs looking for waste and excess spending, etc.) and I was responsible for auditing the military munitions procurement program that was operated from the Rock Island Arsenal. The purchasing programs are based on certain levels of consumption during times of peace and times of conflict and to maintain certain stockpile levels at all times. Given the current global conflicts as well as the pending positions we may be soon involved in, the use (training and combat) has increased the government demand dramatically... as a result, the shortage of ammunition is more likely the result of manufacturers making a conscious decision NOT to ramp up production to meet the higher demand because they are not interested in investing additional capital in order to be able to meet that higher demand for an industry that the government is threatening to shut down (or at least control/take over)... the hollow point shortage is likely tied into this from the fact that the profits reaped from federal government contracts vastly outweigh the profits from consumer sales and if their is higher demand from both sides of the equation the manufacturers are more likely to devote their resources to satisfy the needs of the government before the needs of the consumer.

BULL SHIIT. Just pure BULL SHIIT!

Homeland Security, NOT the military has been stock piling more ammo than all our military budgets allow. Specifically 308 and 223. Ammo manufacturers have specifically stopped producing low cost 22 rimfire because of the competition by the government to suddenly need 2.5 billion rounds extra to supply NOAA. These are the killing rounds, the rounds you would use against a civilian population.

Not sure if this is more propaganda from the internet or this is the real deal, but very scary if true...

We came four votes away from the U.S. Senate giving our Constitutional rights over to the United Nations.

In a 53-46 vote, the Senate narrowly passed a measure that will stop the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty.

The Statement of Purpose from the Bill reads:
"To uphold Second Amendment rights and prevent the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty."

The U.N. Small Arms Treaty, which has been championed by the Obama Administration, would have effectively placed a global ban on the import and export of small firearms. The ban would have affected all private gun owners in the U.S. and included language that would have implemented an international gun registry on all private guns and ammo. Astonishingly, 46 out of our 100 United States Senators were willing to give away our Constitutional rights to a foreign power.

Here are the 46 senators who voted to give your rights to the U.N.
Baldwin (D-WI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bennett (D-CO)
Blumenthal (D-CT)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Cantwell (D-WA)
B B Cardin (D-MD)B
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Coons (D-DE)
Cowan (D-MA)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Franken (D-MN)
Gillibrand (D-NY)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hirono (D-HI)
John son (D-SD)
Kaine (D-VA)
King (I-ME)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Merkley (D-OR)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murphy (D-CT)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schatz (D-HI)
Schumer (D-NY)
Shaheen (D-NH)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Udall (D-CO)
Udall (D-NM)
Warner (D-VA)
Warren (D-MA)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)

I'm sure you couldn't have missed the fact that the list is comprised of 44 Democrats and 2 Independents (who might as well be Democrats.)

They need to lose their next election. They have betrayed their Constitutional Oath of Office. 46 Senators voted to give your 2nd Amendment Constitutional Rights to the U.N.
Does this constitute treason, or at least malfeasance in office?

Don't understand the hullabaloo about hollow points.
Hollow point or FMJ . . . if your shot by an opposition force your just as freakin shot.

The "military" does use hollow points despite belief otherwise.
Especially in the Special Warfare Teams.

The use of sub-caliber FMJ is actually preferred in many military applications due to attrition factors.

Takes more opposition resources to provide for wounded than dead.

The real advantage for "patriotic use" is in the FMJ of at least .30 caliber.
Penetration and knockdown. ( you will not have the benefits of indirect fire support )

Also contrary to popular belief small arms are not the principal weapons of our military. Crew served weapons systems & indirect fire ( mortars artillery, & air strikes ) are the primary killing systems. This is the only reason they can get away with carrying the 5.56x45 mm NATO.
It is not an effective round on it's own. Also why every rifle team has at least one man armed with 7.62x54mm NATO.

George

If the military is using hollow points that must be a recent thing - they've been pretty good about not using them up until now. That's primarily a thing of pistols (meaningless on the battlefield) and hunting rifles - not sure if snipers use them or not. Don't see where hollow point or not makes much difference in .223 - round is too small.

Our 7.62 MG is an old friend of mine - we called it the MAG 58. I'd be hesitant to use any but FMJ on MG ammo - those guns can not afford a stoppage and are set for FMJ. An easy enough fix true - but I don't see a point to it.

As you noted Spec Ops tend to carry what they feel they need - I don't blame them but much discipline in the regular grunt units is directed at keeping very young soldiers from 'accidents' so they don't get a lot of say in such matters.

I've always said that cops should use hollow points - at least up until the point where I decided we (and our dogs) would all be safer if we disarmed the police.

These hollow point bullets don't cut through walls or people as readily as FMJ and we saw in the Boston fiasco how little regard the 'defenders of our freedom' have for civilians: those bozos fired over two hundred fifty rounds at the boat where the suspect was hiding - hitting a maybe one in five shots and missing the bad guy. Gee - where could those other rounds have gone?

Not to worry - those were .223 rifle shots - not those nasty hollow points.

Talbot

Yes Mike . . .
It is fairly recent.
Some tricky wording and slight of definition to get around Geneva regs.

Some the newer hollow point rifle projectiles have a profile that would likely function in MG applications.
But as you noted, not much point in it as it's roll is not one shot stops nor are there a lot of concerns about over-penetration, with the possible variance being the suppressed sub machine guns firing subsonic rounds.
Again as you noted, this would be a SWU application.

George

Yup - I'd forgotten about submachine guns. Which is silly of me - I actually got to work out on an MP5 recently and it changed my mind about SMGs. What a sweetheart.

We used to carry Uzi which we claimed were only good for clearing crowded Telephone Booths!

Talbot

Man . . . I bet that was a blast !

Not sure if this is more propaganda from the internet or this is the real deal, but very scary if true...

We came four votes away from the U.S. Senate giving our Constitutional rights over to the United Nations.

In a 53-46 vote, the Senate narrowly passed a measure that will stop the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty.

The Statement of Purpose from the Bill reads:
"To uphold Second Amendment rights and prevent the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty."

The U.N. Small Arms Treaty, which has been championed by the Obama Administration, would have effectively placed a global ban on the import and export of small firearms. The ban would have affected all private gun owners in the U.S. and included language that would have implemented an international gun registry on all private guns and ammo. Astonishingly, 46 out of our 100 United States Senators were willing to give away our Constitutional rights to a foreign power.

Here are the 46 senators who voted to give your rights to the U.N.
Baldwin (D-WI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bennett (D-CO)
Blumenthal (D-CT)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Cantwell (D-WA)
B B Cardin (D-MD)B
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Coons (D-DE)
Cowan (D-MA)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Franken (D-MN)
Gillibrand (D-NY)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hirono (D-HI)
John son (D-SD)
Kaine (D-VA)
King (I-ME)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Merkley (D-OR)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murphy (D-CT)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schatz (D-HI)
Schumer (D-NY)
Shaheen (D-NH)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Udall (D-CO)
Udall (D-NM)
Warner (D-VA)
Warren (D-MA)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)

I'm sure you couldn't have missed the fact that the list is comprised of 44 Democrats and 2 Independents (who might as well be Democrats.)

They need to lose their next election. They have betrayed their Constitutional Oath of Office. 46 Senators voted to give your 2nd Amendment Constitutional Rights to the U.N.
Does this constitute treason, or at least malfeasance in office?

YES, THIS IS VERY SCARY STUFF. Let us not forget. These senators voted in a manner, that your RIGHT to LIVE, can be usurped by anyone with political power.

It's hard not to see this as a move toward disarming the American people which is the last needed prerequisite to turning this country into something awful.

It's already something awful...

It has been said that God is going to bring down America. Any doubters? I also pray for the potus. I pray that he completes the tasks that God has appointed him to accomplish in that position of authority, as all authority is appointed by God. ........... for His purpose