General Music Chat

The masters such as Bach and Handel or anyone who can read standard notation. You Paul more than most on here would benefit from learning the ins and outs of music from the masters. Music theory has survived and been handed down for the last 500 years or so.

You can't be music, when you refuse to learn what every music student who attends college knows, interval relationships. Every major college in the world teaches this, and most private piano teachers.

I think your a really good player, but knowing how music works, by studying the past masters will bring your talent to another level. When u can read music you can take a lesson right from the hand of Bach, or any master that you choose to learn from. It's hard to do, but lifes hard, it'll put you on another playing level.

Ihope you take this in the spirit it was given, but I don't communicate well, and don't have time for musicians who sit satisfied with their own playing skills.

Like or Dislike me it's not for me to decide.

You might find this information interesting. I consider it relevant. When I was in high school I walked past a door that read music theory. I had never heard that term. I assumed that it was studying theories about how different chordal relationships, different chord progressions, different solos, tempos, harmonies, etc effect emotion. To me scale "X" goes with key "Y" is not a theory. It's a fact. Sometimes the "wrongest" note is the "rightest" note. I can't really explain to you how I truly am music. I can give you a few representations.

When someone is singing solo, a Capella, and off key or wandering between keys it's like they are touching my eyeball with a dry finger.

I taste and tear up with the proper combinations of chords, melodies, and harmonies when they are properly played at the proper tempo.

Music involuntarily forces itself on me.

I am music.

I may not know the names of the chords I am playing yet I know the chords intimately, personally.

I know the chords much more than by name. I know who the chords are.

Another simpler explanation of why I don't care to learn to "read music" is this.

When I want to play a song I just do. I don't look up anything about it. Don't watch tutorials, or live performances. I don't even look for the key. I just hear it in my head, the whole thing, and play.

Usually it takes me a few seconds to get a chord progression with the melodies and lyrics to play it the first time. Then I flesh it out and try to eliminate mistakes. To own it and make it my own usually takes 2 or 3 hours of total playing time. Then it's ready to record. Occasionally one will be ready to record in 15 minutes. And that with my perfectionist obsession.

If a song I like is playing on the radio/Internet/etc I can usually figure out the entire verse before the first verse is through. Occasionally it takes 2 verses.

Rarely it takes 10-15 minutes to figure out all of the chords to a song. "Your song" by Elton John took 15 minutes recently. That diminished (I think that's the term) 4 chord series at the "I hope you don't mind, I hope you don't mind, that I put down in words" took me a moment to figure out. But that was playing it on my 4 string cigar box guitar. Later I played it on piano.

I'm not trying to brag. I'm just sharing why I feel no need to take a lesson. And yes!! There is a great satisfaction that comes from being a "self made man".

As for the "greats", I dislike classical.
The greats to me are Merle Haggard, the Everly brothers, Kyuss. The ones that manipulate my emotions.

As for growth, I never stop growing. Just look back through my YouTube vids to see my growth in musicianship and production. There are many many ways to grow in music. I couldn't immediately play most any song I wanted even 2 years ago.

"Let me down easy" was a milestone for me in piano playing for instance. And that's pretty recent.

Thanks for your input Lynard.

Some people play very well with formal music training.
Some people play just as well without that music training.

I am in the latter half of this as well.


Some people study all their lives and can't do it.
And some study very little and oddly enough come up with the goods.


Regardless of how you do it, as long as you are doing it, it doesn't matter.
The proof is in the pudding...period.

Play on, don't worry about what anyone says unless they don't like it.
The haters are going to hate regardless of what you do or say.

Just be good at what you do, if not do something else.

I took 'music theory for long haired rock and roll musicians' in high school. I took 'music theory for non-music majors' at college. Very good info in both. I can't sight-read music, but understanding intervals, etc does help me.

music is like everything else....there's no ONE way to go about it. and there's more than one (or 100) ways of getting from point A to point whatever.

VIVA LA DIFFERENCE!!!

for me...i couldn't function as well w/o a solid understanding of the nuts and bolts of how it all goes together. yeah, i have a good ear... but a good ear only gets ya so far. like when the gtrst calls a new tune i've never played or heard before and says "it's just a II V I in 'A' then it goes to relative minor for the B section. then we modulate up a minor third and repeat it all".

with that info, and understanding the theory behind it, i can jump right in as the song is counted in. on the other hand ... not understanding him and relying solely on my ear, i'd have to wait for the next time around, or try to guess as i was eyeballing his left hand. of course....my "ear" would tell me when i zigged where i should have zagged but i'd already be left dick in hand at that point.

as an improvising musician i find theory HUGELY helpful as it can often suggest things when my imagination and creativity to hear some great line and create it ain't happening.

for instance knowing that when faced w a C7 i can not only superimpose an E dim over it....but also Gdim, Bbdim, or C#dim gives me that many more choices and stuff to mine for ideas.

i also find it hugely helpful for writing tunes. YMMV

I find people trying to explain to me what we are playing as I'm playing it to them.

I understand the nuts and bolts. I play them. I just don't call them by their names.

I can't play half the chords I'd like to and don't know the names of half the ones I do play. Many I picked up by watching someone else and wondering what the hell he was doing...so I went home and figured it out. If I can see where on the neck he is and know what it sounds like I can probably figure it out. In many cases I still can't play it, tendon damage to my left ring finger makes it impossible to play some chords most guys never think twice about. I don't even know the chords to songs I've written...I just play it. Don't even think about asking me what chords I use in Silhouette of A Daydream, it's tuned in open G is all I can tell you.

I have an ear like Neanderpaul. I have no idea how many times I've figured out guitar, bass or keyboard parts at band practice and other band members ask me how the HELL do you do that? I don't know, I just hear it. If I can hear it I can figure it out. Been doing it since I was in 7th grade. Never touched a keyboard except to play chopsticks and figured out the keyboard intro to a song we wanted to play (Steve Winwood song I think) in about 5 minutes. Been able to do it ever since.

Took music theory in high school, don't remember a damn thing about it. Knew how to read music then but never could sight read worth a flip. Still probably can but haven't looked at sheet music in 30 years.

It's just in my head, I hear it but can't really explain it. I'm itching to re record last train, I have all the parts in my head, don't have the recording equipment to work on it. But the parts are all there. Trying to put it into words is like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube...It's just there, you hear it in your head or you don't. I have this little guitar player blasting away non stop, I can't go to sleep half the time 'cause the little bastard won't shut the hell up...takes me an hour to shut down enough to go to sleep most nights. Getting wasted won't even do it...two six packs and I'd still take an hour to go to sleep...(quit that many years ago) Name a song I know how to play and I can hear every note in my head...in most cases every part including specific drum fills...drives me crazy sometimes...but that's how I figure songs out. Listen to it till I have it in my head then pick up the guitar. I hear things most people don't even notice, and if your guitar is out of tune I know it in seconds. I don't have perfect pitch, but very good relative pitch. Play a wrong note and I know it.

I've been like that my whole life. Tuned my guitar by ear with no tuner or pitch fork for over 20 years, usually very close to the right pitch. Figure out most songs in 20 minutes. Might take 3 weeks of practice to nail it every time, but I'll have the chords in minutes. Some chords I figured out by playing one note at a time. I can hear it but don't know where it's played. In most cases I can even tell the difference between a note played on an open string and the same note fretted on another string. When most guys I knew were trying to play Smoke on the Water using barre chords, I was playing it right...2 and 3 strings starting with open strings G. Don't ask me how, I just knew it wasn't barre chords...Finally saw Blackmore play it...same way I always have...

Just don't ask me to play any of Eric Johnson's stuff...

Pete

I had a couple songs that used chords that I couldn't identify. When I was writing the chord chart I call them 'mangled' or some such. Now I use this website that has some pretty useful tools which enabled me to identify any chord I might play. (lots of scales and stuff too - even some mandolin)

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/index.php

You can imagine my surprise when I learned I was playing a Ed13(no 5).
Talbot

Paul music theory is so much more then reading pitch and rhythm.

Music theory is a study of what the past masters have consistently done in their composing. Scale X doesn't have to go with Key Y, some scales are so close to one another, but in different Keys. Many great composers can run 2 melodies at the same time, but they seem to follow a system of melodic and harmonic "rules". Single line melodies are easy, contrapuntal melodies are a little tougher, (horizontal), then adding harmony (vertical) lines, and making it work. A study of Beethoven, for example would show you how he wrote and rewrote, and rewrote, trial and error has always worked for man in any field.

Every college in the world can't be wrong.

It's great that your satisfied with your music, is it doing everything for u that you would like it to do?

Take your example "Your Song" know diminished chords there, he simply uses a bass root note that is different (lot of times this is called a slash chord). When you learn the theory you see that this tune can be reduced to its basic melodic function, Elton's playing that in Eb, so you can just about bet for sure there is a Bb in there and probably a Ab, and what's the relative minor to Eb? Well it's Cm, can you hear the intervals on the part your talking about, "Ihope you don't mind...." its a Cm then a slash chord Cm/Bb. then Cm/A, to end on a Ab6, then to step back into "How wonderful..." another slash chord Eb/G. To me to master music you have to be able to hear these intervals and identify them, unless your a child prodigy.

Paul you don't have to read pitch and rhythm, that isn't music theory persay, it's interval relationships, that you've heard your whole life, this is called harmonic tendency. Lots of players are using polytonality now, try Saturday in the Park, Bob Lamm is playing a different chord with each hand, can u hear that.

Paul I'm not bragging either, but I've never had a lesson in my life, but I readeverything musical I can get my hands on, I sat at the piano for years listening to the different intervals, till they became me. I try to take a lesson from every player I play with, that's just another thing I like about playing. I'm "self made" musically, and business wise, I've always been on my own.

You'd be surprised how many melodies todays masters stole from the classical greats, a lot of times just 4 or 8 measures, from a 200 measure piece they wrote.

I love the Hag, and have always been a huge fan of the Rolling Stones, but they learned from listening to somebody.

I watch most of your utube videos, I think your the only one on the forum I subscribe to.

When u thing you know it all, you really know nothing.

Interval realtionships, melodically and harmonically, and then how to make them blend, only lends itself to good compositions.

Glad to hear your moving forward, since the last time we talked this, i'm trying to myself.

Paul I only say this to make u better, cause you have the ability to do it.

One side question, you don't wear teeth when you sing? I have a hard time keeping mine in my mouth when I do sing, but without them I don't have as good of enunciation. Why is that? Do you never wear teeth?

Wow and another train wreck..

I'll sum it up for you like this Lynard.

I have all of my teeth.

And my music speaks for itself.

It doesn't speak to me, your piano playing is sparse and shows a lack of knowledge of harmony.

There is no sin in trying to improve, this forum seems to be filled with wannabes who haven't made it, and are content with their talent level.
Music theory, it's taught in every college in the world, that makes it right, you can't be music till you fully understand music. That's why people attend these colleges.

Mr Scott, you just try to start trouble, but I see you as just another blowhard. Telling people your going to beat them up, always on the internet,
when you say this to my face, Iusually punch your teeth down your throat before your done with your whimsical statement. Your a joke

It doesn't speak to me, your piano playing is sparse and shows a lack of knowledge of harmony.

It's minimalist. Lot's of excellent music is.
Lack of knowledge of harmony?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhxRVcg6AqY

It doesn't speak to me,

Oh, I thought you said.... Oh wait.... you did....

I watch most of your utube videos, I think your the only one on the forum I subscribe to.

There is no sin in trying to improve,

Which I demonstrated that I have been consistently doing throughout my lifelong musical adventure.

this forum seems to be filled with wannabes who haven't made it, and are content with their talent level.

Wow, aren't you a sweetheart.

Music theory, it's taught in every college in the world, that makes it right, you can't be music till you fully understand music. That's why people attend these colleges.

That's a sampling of other untrained musicians who you may have heard of. I think they are music. Source?

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/ ... music.html

Iusually punch your teeth down your throat before your done with your whimsical statement. Your a joke

I usually punch your teeth down your throat before you're done with your whimsical statement. you're a joke

FTFY

You're talking about fighting. That really sums it up for us.

is that not the Rage Against The Machine dude in the last photo?