This is a MUSIC forum. Irrelevant or disrespectful posts/topics will be removed by Admin. Please report any forum spam or inappropriate posts HERE.

All users can post to this forum on general music topics.

Moderators: bandmixmod1, jimmy990, spikedace

#221669 by VinnyViolin
Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:08 pm
jimmydanger wrote:When it comes to genocides and civil wars, we've tried to stay out of them unless chemical, biological or nuclear weapons are involved. And I'm quite positive none of the people who were asphyxiated by sarin gas would have preferred it to any other method of horrible death.



BY SHANE HARRIS AND MATTHEW M. AID - From FOREIGN POLICY AUGUST 26, 2013

In 1988, during the waning days of Iraq's war with Iran, the United States learned through satellite imagery that Iran was about to gain a major strategic advantage by exploiting a hole in Iraqi defenses. U.S. intelligence officials conveyed the location of the Iranian troops to Iraq, fully aware that Hussein's military would attack with chemical weapons, including sarin, a lethal nerve agent.

The intelligence included imagery and maps about Iranian troop movements, as well as the locations of Iranian logistics facilities and details about Iranian air defenses. The Iraqis used mustard gas and sarin prior to four major offensives in early 1988 that relied on U.S. satellite imagery, maps, and other intelligence. These attacks helped to tilt the war in Iraq's favor and bring Iran to the negotiating table, and they ensured that the Reagan administration's long-standing policy of securing an Iraqi victory would succeed. But they were also the last in a series of chemical strikes stretching back several years that the Reagan administration knew about and didn't disclose.

US officials have long denied acquiescing to Iraqi chemical attacks, insisting that Husseins government never announced he was going to use the weapons. But retired Air Force Col Rick Francona, who was a military attache in Baghdad during the 1988 strikes, paints a different picture.

"The Iraqis never told us that they intended to use nerve gas. They didn't have to. We already knew," he told Foreign Policy.

According to recently declassified CIA documents and interviews with former intelligence officials like Francona, the U.S. had firm evidence of Iraqi chemical attacks beginning in 1983. At the time, Iran was publicly alleging that illegal chemical attacks were carried out on its forces, and was building a case to present to the United Nations. But it lacked the evidence implicating Iraq, much of which was contained in top secret reports and memoranda sent to the most senior intelligence officials in the U.S. government. The CIA declined to comment for this story.

In contrast to today's wrenching debate over whether the United States should intervene to stop alleged chemical weapons attacks by the Syrian government, the United States applied a cold calculus three decades ago to Hussein's widespread use of chemical weapons against his enemies and his own people. The Reagan administration decided that it was better to let the attacks continue if they might turn the tide of the war. And even if they were discovered, the CIA wagered that international outrage and condemnation would be muted.

#221671 by jimmydanger
Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:54 pm
Speaking of Iran, this limited action will also serve as a convenient reminder to Iran - you fcuk with us you get hurt. Not one boot on the ground will be needed.

#221673 by VinnyViolin
Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:40 pm
jimmydanger wrote:Speaking of Iran, this limited action will also serve as a convenient reminder to Iran - you fcuk with us you get hurt. Not one boot on the ground will be needed.


I'm sure Iran has a good memory ...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 1953 Iranian coup d'etat, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup, was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran, and its head of government Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name 'Operation Boot') and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project).

#221681 by Starfish Scott
Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:50 am
My eyes are bugging..

I thought it said the "TAMPAX" project for a moment..lol That actually made sense to me for a sec, sec and a half.

#221686 by gbheil
Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:00 pm
It is not a "civil war" in Syria. It's Assad's evil empire against Al Qaeda's evil empire. No matter whom "wins" the decent people of Syria will continue to suffer and die.
Both side are enemies of free men and justice, as are the war mongering bastards in Washington.

#221690 by Christopher Holmes
Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:24 pm
sanshouheil wrote:It is not a "civil war" in Syria. It's Assad's evil empire against Al Qaeda's evil empire. No matter whom "wins" the decent people of Syria will continue to suffer and die.
Both side are enemies of free men and justice, as are the war mongering bastards in Washington.


Glad someone pointed that out. Good on you Sans.

This is one of those situations for which I do not envy our political leaders. This really is a Kobayashi Maru - the No Win Scenario. There are no good options here.

This whole thing speaks to the larger issue in the middle east, and that is how we (Westerners) are perceived by Islam. Until we do something to actually repair that relationship, the larger situation is never going to go away, and no-win scenarios like Syria are going to keep happening.

#221704 by Slacker G
Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:24 pm
Doc Thompson brought up a couple of interesting things today. (NewsBusters) made mention that there have been over 100,000 deaths since this conflict began. So why the intense drive over just a small group of people killed?

Doc Thompson brought up some interesting points today. Is this a distraction to pass amnesty behind our backs while we are diverted? Is it a diversion to pass gun legislation while we aren't looking? Or is it for any number of pieces of legislation that would infuriate the American citizen?

A caller mentioned that they have been trying to build a gas pipeline through the region, but have been held back by the Syria government. Doc said that other countries in the region have offered to foot the bill for the strikes. Could that be payola from the special interest people to get that pipeline through Syria?

No matter what the reason, these tyrants that have taken this country from the hands of the American citizens can not be trusted, and they always put up diversions to take attention from what is really going on behind the backs of the Americans who elected them.

Believe nothing you hear and nothing you see from the bought and paid for propaganda media. They create new regime inspired diversions every day to distract the very citizens that they were elected to protect.

#221705 by jimmydanger
Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:06 pm
Doc Thompson? Is he the Mayberry town doctor? Probably down at the fishing hole most days.

You should be a comedian.

#221717 by Cajundaddy
Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:09 am
Christopher Holmes wrote:
This whole thing speaks to the larger issue in the middle east, and that is how we (Westerners) are perceived by Islam. Until we do something to actually repair that relationship, the larger situation is never going to go away, and no-win scenarios like Syria are going to keep happening.


Unfortunately Christopher, I don't think repair is an option. We are "The infidel" and the end game is to convert us to Islam or wipe us from the earth. Not much wiggle room there. :shock:

#221742 by Christopher Holmes
Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:54 pm
Thejohnny7band wrote:
Christopher Holmes wrote:
Unfortunately Christopher, I don't think repair is an option. We are "The infidel" and the end game is to convert us to Islam or wipe us from the earth. Not much wiggle room there. :shock:


That's a pretty narrow-minded and defeatist attitude though. I mean, not to pick on you personally, because that attitude is shared by many Americans, but that is just a wrong attitude to have. That is convincing yourself that a problem cannot be fixed. That's just the wrong attitude to have for problem solving.

History has taught us that like all wars and squabbles, rarely does the common man actually share that same attitude as the leaders who cause these problems.

You talk a normal Muslim who is NOT a bomb-making radical, and they will not share that attitude. They just want to be left in peace. They talk of the Koran as an instrument of peace. They wish to convert no one, to kill no one. It's the radicals who have the problem, and like all radicals, they are not the majority.

Just like you talk to a Christian who is NOT a radical, and they aren't all anti-gay, super-hatemongers like the WBC.

You're never going to convince a radical of anything. But that's not who you have to win over. You have to win over the common, everyday masses. The guy who is busting his ass in the desert to earn a living for his family, hoping to send his children to a good school, worship his God peacefully, make love to his wife every now and then, and not get his face shot off when he goes shopping in the street.

We are all human. And we all have a lot more in common than we're willing to admit at times.

You cannot make a positive change without hope. You cannot make progress without the right attitude.

The middle east is filled with people who just want to be happy, provide for their families, be respected, and make their way in the world. We have to start focusing on our similarities and forget our differences.

#221743 by jimmydanger
Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:18 pm
Excellent post Christopher.

Most people here don't believe Muslims are people too, and that most of them just want peace. They don't understand the concept of radicals, who make up less than 5% of the group.

#221748 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:36 pm
I agree with one caveat...


The difference is that all muslims are required to memorize the Quran. You'd be hard pressed to find a christian who has memorized more than a verse of the Bible here or there...and it's usually out of context.


I digress, the Quran is mostly plagurized proverbs and sayings from the Torah and other "holy" books of Mohammed's time. It actually makes very little sense, though it sounds poetic. Kinda like a Led Zepplin lyric. ;-)


But these saying get embedded into an impressionable young mind and are then left alone, depending on the sect of Islam one goes to from there.

Like the seed of anti-semitism is buried within European theological christianity, there is also a seed buried with Islam that an Imam can come along and water later in life. So in reality, almost all muslims "could" be radicalized by a clever imam. Just like the most civilized christian country in Europe produced Hitler and allowed his racist anger.

Besides that, only 5% of a billion people is still 50 million people.

I agree that we shouldn't treat all muslims with suspicion, but those who we should treat with suspicion are almost all muslim.




At this moment, the world is in much more danger from the American President though.




.

#221764 by Cajundaddy
Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:25 am
I appreciate your opinion Christopher. My views on the Middle East and Islam were exactly like yours until about 5 years ago but I no longer feel this way. I have the greatest hope for the people of Islam and have no ill will or hatred against any of them. Not even the radical terrorists who destroyed the WTC towers or bombed the Boston marathon. I forgive them as they are only flawed humans just like the rest of us.

In my business I have hired Muslim employees, shielded them from persecution after the 9/11 attacks. Many of my clients are Muslim and they are hard working, good people just as you say. Unfortunately none of this changes the truth about the Q'uran or their supreme prophet.

When the Holy book says to convert or eliminate the infidel (us), and their highest prophet demonstrated these "virtues" throughout his adult life, and modern day terrorists follow exactly in his footsteps as outlined in the Q'uran, while moderate Muslims cheer quietly or turn their backs, I must take this seriously. This is not a drill.

For a good look at what is coming, study the last 100 years of Lebanon. If nothing else changes, I predict Detroit= Beirut in 10 years. I seriously hope I am wrong but I doubt it. My hope is that the hard working, bright, lovable Muslim people will wake up and see this path of destruction before it is too late, and quietly change course. That is not so easy because to leave Islam is often a death sentence. At least being completely ostracized from their family, community, friends, support system, and businesses. A very difficult choice for most.

This guy has seen both sides pretty clearly as he lived it from within. After reading his book it is clear that we can never really "make nice" with the religion of Islam. It is not compatible with the concepts of freedom and liberty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHq25tnZoFs

Peace my friend.

#221849 by ANGELSSHOTGUN
Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:15 pm
This whole thing has become total insanity. This is not an Obama thing. This is not a congressional thing. This is not a religious thing.

If this is about world wide outrage... about the use of chemical weapons... where is the rest of the world???

Forget about the United States... WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE FROM EVERY ONE ELSE????

Or... WHAT?

#221858 by MikeTalbot
Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:47 am
Glen

Since most folks think there is at least an even or perhaps better chance it was the rebels who used the gas...just to whom should we express outrage?

Screw it? Just bomb somebody to feel better? Mussolini gassed the Ethiopians, Churchill wanted to gas the "Persians" at one time and various fuzzy-wuzzies. The French, Germans and British gassed each other regularly. This is old hat to the Euros. They invented the stuff.

Putin, God bless him, came up with a plan: Russia will take over Syria's gas weaponry guaranteeing it can't be used in this war. Thus no excuse for this playing at war in Syria that FedGov wants to do.

These idiots are playing with fire. I hope Putin's proposal damps the flames.

Talbot

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 201 guests