General Music Chat

I think you are right...Its extremely difficult for Christian believers in God to grasp life without meaning and purpose.

yeah, but one man's "meaning and purpose"....is just "mere existence" to another. and vice versa.

my meaning and purpose is to be the best husband, family man, teacher, bandmate, and friend that i can be to those whose paths i cross. my purpose is to do as little harm as possible. i try to leave things AT least as good as i found them. i know i've touched people, and i like to believe i've made a difference in some people's lives.

some might view that as a "life without meaning or purpose".....but for ME, my life lacks neither.

Define 'Best husband, family man, teacher,...'

ok. i'll play along.

i'm not striving to be the "best" at any of those. we all know "best" is subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

what i said was "i strive to best i can be. "

and that is NOT subjective since i know when my best effort is put forth and when i'm phoning it in.

Mark Vs The Iceman.

Mark is not a murderer; But The Iceman is. Mark is not immoral; But The Iceman is. Both of them are stand-up when it comes to family and friends.

If Mark were ever to be presented the opportunity to help the Iceman change his evil bad ways, what precisely would give Mark the necessary leverage, which offers any hope of success?

Mark might be tempted to 'normalize' (bring to scale, convention and balance) the plane of existence that now includes the Iceman. Mark might be inclined to raise the Iceman's plane to Mark's level, (rather than lowering Mark's plane to the Iceman's level). There's the first glimmer of normalization. But why in that fashion and not the reverse? (Universal imperatives?...Enter Ethics!)

Because the Iceman is who he is... (and in his interview, he stated no regrets about the deeds, but definitely missed his family and might have 'thought' to do things differently in his life)...there is no way that Mark can really normalize the existence on these 'mortal' terms.

So, what if we invented a God (For now) and what if in the mental fabrication, we saw intriguing logic and inspiration, which affords us the tools we need to normalize existence.

To normalize existence, A with B, we need a 'C', to bridge and define the new terms of existence. C is that leverage, which which Both Mark and the Iceman would need to bridge and ultimately normalize the existence.

(Mark i hope you are getting the jazz part of this crazy tune

For Christians, the ''C" is viewed as GOD, who mediates existence. This in turn frees us believers up to envision the next plane, and so on. (all under a normalized plan) When you do this long enough, the pattern becomes clearer...We are discovering the principles of longevity. We value "the important remain important" and that it becomes carried forward.

The Iceman and pretty much any good standing atheist admittedly wont/cant ever try to see that far...beyond the immediate realm. As such, there wont any be hell-fire and brimstone for it...Instead, they simply wont be burdened with anything beyond what they could see. It is at that threshold of their vision, as the lights go out, that "the important will tragically become the unimportant". And that my friends, is the primary difference between a believer and an atheist.

My cape ...Please!

yeah, but here's the good news: after a long spree of brutal murders, upon his capture he meets father flanigan while on death row. just before iceman's executed (in texas) he repents his sins and accepts jesus as his saviour!

he now passes go, collects $200, and gets to spend eternity at god's right hand in heaven.....even though he spent his life brutally murdering and ruining the lives of countless surviving family members of his victims.

now the bad news: his last victim was an avowed atheist. Sally Solshine performed selfless good deeds her entire life... regular volunteering at soup kitchens, working tirelessly for no pay at an orphange...one mitzvah after another.
but dang.....before being slain by Iceman she never accepted jesus as her saviour. and now.....poor sally, she's roasting for all eternity.


ok, as for me trying to bring iceman to another more enlightened level...nah, not my gig, my style, or how i'd approach it. if i knew beyond any doubt of his murderous ways i'd take him around back and enlighten him w the nearest 2x4 or crowbar i found. problem solved.

in jazz parlance....that's what we refer to as "straight ahead".

ok, as for me trying to bring iceman to another more enlightened level...nah, not my gig, my style, or how i'd approach it. if i knew beyond any doubt of his murderous ways i'd take him around back and enlighten him w the nearest 2x4 or crowbar i found. problem solved.

So, you would lower your plane to his..in order to normalize the existence.? Far be it from me to intervene (Only cause its too long of a walk for me )

Presumptions about salvation: Salvation and Damnation are not mutually exclusive, and by no means are they necessarily an either/or proposition.

Scenario 1:

Iceman: Killed the son that would have otherwise lived on and become the best defense attorney in the nation. Iceman gets saved by God, but who say's Heaven doen't come with some chores, ...like maybe an eternal servitude to the souls he violated....and so on. Just a speculation


Scenario 2:
Atheist spends her entire life on earth, helping others. "What you do for the least of these (men & woman) ...you also do for me..." J.CHrist . Already, that's points for her.
her entire 'judgement' day takes a 180 and maybe, she's asked...one last time..and she joins the club after all. We just don't know....

What we do know..is that here on earth, your mind is made up (metaphorically speaking and not you personally) and set on a dictum that has no more or less credence than any other dictum..

What remains is how much desire to sustain the important, and not allow it to become unimportant.

I would add we should choose what's important, very wisely, because there ain't enough room to carry anymore than that.


Water! Wheres my damn Water...and bring me that scone!

ok, as for me trying to bring iceman to another more enlightened level...nah, not my gig, my style, or how i'd approach it. if i knew beyond any doubt of his murderous ways i'd take him around back and enlighten him w the nearest 2x4 or crowbar i found. problem solved.

So, you would lower your plane to his..in order to normalize the existence.? Far be it from me to intervene (Only cause its too long of a walk for me )

well.....not QUITE to his level is it? he's murdering innocents. and i am dispatching a murderer to prevent future malfeasance.

hardly the same level, methinks.

Presumptions about salvation: Salvation and Damnation are not mutually exclusive, and by no means are they necessarily an either/or proposition.

Scenario 1:

Iceman: Killed the son that would have otherwise lived on and become the best defense attorney in the nation. Iceman gets saved by God, but who say's Heaven doen't come with some chores, ...like maybe an eternal servitude to the souls he violated....and so on. Just a speculation

and a very interesting speculation it is at that. yeah...that'd make things slightly more palatable to me.

Scenario 2:
Atheist spends her entire life on earth, helping others. "What you do for the least of these (men & woman) ...you also do for me..." J.CHrist . Already, that's points for her.
her entire 'judgement' day takes a 180 and maybe, she's asked...one last time..and she joins the club after all. We just don't know....

no, we don't know. that's where belief comes in. and for me DISbelief. way too much "what if....?"

What we do know..is that here on earth, your mind is made up (metaphorically speaking and not you personally) and set on a dictum that has no more or less credence than any other dictum..

is it made up? or is it constantly fluid and in a state of flux? who knows...i THINK my mind is "made up" but tomorrow it could possibly change. same for your's, no?

What remains is how much desire to sustain the important, and not allow it to become unimportant.

not sure your intent there...so i won't comment.

I would add we should choose what's important, very wisely, because there ain't enough room to carry anymore than that.

well, wisdom and grace are always to be sought and strived for.

Water! Wheres my damn Water...and bring me that scone!

i fetch NO man's scones!

PG

You are making a secular straw man argument.

We all have a period of Grace - the time of it is determined by God. You see, we are ALL saved. We can reject it if we wish. I call it "Free won't."

When we see horrors like you describe (and we did, in UK today) we must make the assumption that God knows what He is doing.

As a pastor I knew used to say, "What have you done today, to keep Pluto in it's orbit?"

Talbot

Capitalism is explicitly the most destructive economic system mankind has ever devised. It pillages finite resources without any consideration for the good of mankind or his home, enriching the most deplorable few while economically enslaving the majority to it's unsustainable means.

Can you argue that capitalism doesn't embrace, and even reward, the deadly sins? No, you can't. Nobody can, because truth cannot be changed no matter how much you don't like it.

On the surface some of that sounds wise, but unfortunately it doesn't take human nature into account. On paper it sounds great that we'd all share resources and have the same result of satisfaction and fairness in society.

But things never work out that way because men are corrupt and greed isn't limited to capitalist ideology.

Organized religion has endorsed and embraced capitalism, and therefore is suspect at best, and damnable at worst.

hmm...either you didn't really say what you meant or you only see (some) American christian churches as "organized".

Outside of the USA they don't have the same capitalist foundation necessarily. Muslims definitely don't embrace capitalism...does that mean they aren't organized?

A portion of Jews in eastern european nations have a communist/socialist political ideology...does that mean they don't have "organized" religion?



In my opinion, outside of a Theocratic Monarchy run by Jesus alone, capitalism is the closest thing to a righteous government because it allows each person the same freedom of opportunity (not result) and to have the dignity to:

a. own property
b. be responsible for one's own destiny
c. give as you wish
d. move upwardly in society without hindrance of class

Capitalism is explicitly the most destructive economic system mankind has ever devised. It pillages finite resources without any consideration for the good of mankind or his home, enriching the most deplorable few while economically enslaving the majority to it's unsustainable means.

Can you argue that capitalism doesn't embrace, and even reward, the deadly sins? No, you can't. Nobody can, because truth cannot be changed no matter how much you don't like it.

Kramer, mankind embraces the 7 deadly sins. Economic systems have nothing to do with it. Don't get the two twisted.

As for pillaging finite resources and enriching the deplorable few while enslaving the majority? You forgot a bunch of em:

China under Mao, Russia under Stalin, N Korea under Kim Jong-Il, Cambodia under Pol Pot, USSR under Kruschev. and many others. Not only did these dictators pillage finite resources and enslave the masses, but they drove their country to ruins, many unable to feed their own people. As icing on the cake these benevolent socialist leaders collectively murdered up to 100 million of their own countrymen who didn't agree with them or were simply found to be unworthy "for the good of the people".

Freedom of choice, a system of democracy, and capitalism are as flawed as we humans are flawed but they may be your strongest ally and the only thing that stands between you and the next mass murdering communist dictator. Choose your team wisely. Just as important... choose your demons wisely.

Capitalism is explicitly the most destructive economic system mankind has ever devised. It pillages finite resources without any consideration for the good of mankind or his home, enriching the most deplorable few while economically enslaving the majority to it's unsustainable means.

Can you argue that capitalism doesn't embrace, and even reward, the deadly sins? No, you can't. Nobody can, because truth cannot be changed no matter how much you don't like it.

Kramer, mankind embraces the 7 deadly sins. Economic systems have nothing to do with it. Don't get the two twisted.

As for pillaging finite resources and enriching the deplorable few while enslaving the majority? You forgot a bunch of em:

China under Mao, Russia under Stalin, N Korea under Kim Jong-Il, Cambodia under Pol Pot, USSR under Kruschev. and many others. Not only did these dictators pillage finite resources and enslave the masses, but they drove their country to ruins, many unable to feed their own people. As icing on the cake these benevolent socialist leaders collectively murdered up to 100 million of their own countrymen who didn't agree with them or were simply found to be unworthy "for the good of the people".

Freedom of choice, a system of democracy, and capitalism are as flawed as we humans are flawed but they may be your strongest ally and the only thing that stands between you and the next mass murdering communist dictator. Choose your team wisely.

Johnny, This also illustrates a salient point...that no matter how much One believes in GOD, sometimes a man needs to take one for the team and do a few hits on some 'benevolent' leaders. In defense of many people, who, rightfully cannot reconcile God with a world that is rife with so much hate... they need from time to time, an equalizer.

I have always said, in another life, I would probably make a great assassin. (I truly believe I could excel at it... )

Its really a good thing that I believe in a God, as I do... because I am convinced that it is definitively the only thing which stands between me and a trail of dead people, who offend me. (I dont mean asshats who say stupid sh*t on BM)

I have an axe...should I grow a beard?

Capitalism is explicitly the most destructive economic system mankind has ever devised. It pillages finite resources without any consideration for the good of mankind or his home, enriching the most deplorable few while economically enslaving the majority to it's unsustainable means.

Can you argue that capitalism doesn't embrace, and even reward, the deadly sins? No, you can't. Nobody can, because truth cannot be changed no matter how much you don't like it.

Kramer, mankind embraces the 7 deadly sins. Economic systems have nothing to do with it. Don't get the two twisted.

As for pillaging finite resources and enriching the deplorable few while enslaving the majority? You forgot a bunch of em:

China under Mao, Russia under Stalin, N Korea under Kim Jong-Il, Cambodia under Pol Pot, USSR under Kruschev. and many others. Not only did these dictators pillage finite resources and enslave the masses, but they drove their country to ruins, many unable to feed their own people. As icing on the cake these benevolent socialist leaders collectively murdered up to 100 million of their own countrymen who didn't agree with them or were simply found to be unworthy "for the good of the people".

Freedom of choice, a system of democracy, and capitalism are as flawed as we humans are flawed but they may be your strongest ally and the only thing that stands between you and the next mass murdering communist dictator. Choose your team wisely.

Johnny, This also illustrates a salient point...that no matter how much One believes in GOD, sometimes a man needs to take one for the team and do a few hits on some 'benevolent' leaders. In defense of many people, who, rightfully cannot reconcile God with a world that is rife with so much hate... they need from time to time, an equalizer.

I have always said, in another life, I would probably make a great assassin. (I truly believe I could excel at it... )

Its really a good thing that I believe in a God, as I do... because I am convinced that it is definitively the only thing which stands between me and a trail of dead people, who offend me. (I dont mean asshats who say stupid sh*t on BM)

I have an axe...should I grow a beard?

Thanks be to Almighty God for scaring you straight!
And we would like to thank him for allowing so many of those who do not believe in him to have the spiritual maturity to know for themselves that it is wrong to kill people who merely offend them.