General Music Chat

I didn't write that, I found it in an article, cherry picked the useful parts that pertained to the issues non-believers have. I agree with your point as well, guess that falls under the "pissed off" part. I see people even on welfare where they still give money to the church.. Now I gotta watch my tax dollars go directly to a tax-free non-charity. Great.

I hated religion when I was an atheist. I hate it even more now that I'm not.

I agree with much of what the atheist said in that article. And I lament that religion has done more to blind people from having faith than any atheist could ever accomplish.



It was Ya'acov (the brother of Jesus) who said in James 1:26-27

26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.


I support that definition. Everything else called "religion" is a varying degree of spiritual manipulation.

It is true fact that there are multiple thousands of "religions" but faith is what the bible calls for, not religion. Faith is defined as strong trust in God. If we really trust in the Word of God, there is no need to be defensive about our faith, since it is the Spirit of God who does the work of salvation anyway.

I have faith enough to apologize for all the horrors committed in the name of religion, and catagorically reject any notion of manipulation as coming from the God of the bible. The Holy Spirit allows all of us the freedom to choose curse or blessing. Religious people choose curse way too often.







.

I think it's great that you choose faith over religion. Of all the religious folks here, you seem to be the most balanced Yod.

Thanks Jimmy, I do appreciate your grace toward me for that.

And I know that God isn't angry at any of us. He wants to redeem us from the things that are destroying us daily.

Religious systems are a bunch of hocus-pocus. They teach that saying the right words is like a lucky charm against the devil. Religion points a wagging finger at others to exalt oneself.


Faith says do what is right (love God and your neighbor) and there is no reason to worry and nothing to be angry about.





.

According to Kramer's posting, we are to believe that Atheists are reasonably certain there is no God, and that there is no evidence of God. Further more, we can take away from this that life is so short, that we are left to extrapolate as much from it as we possibly can, (the more volume of experience, the merrier?) ...

Am I to believe then, that we live and exist, solely for the sake of living and existing....without purpose or direction, and with no significant bells to answer to?

If so, perhaps you'll take comfort, that an amoeba successfully fulfills this type of existence . So do chimpanzees and salamanders. But how unfortunate for them, that they lack a mind to make voluminous experiences out of their lives. They just exist, until they don't live anymore. The unimportant...remains un important.

What a shame, that with 'mind', some people, will choose to merely exist. Somehow, the voluminous experiences, no matter how highly they are stacked, will still amount to less than stellar in terms of enriched life. So you hang glided across Hawaii, stepped on the moon... That's it then. on the premise of mere existence The important...tragically became unimportant .

But, unlike the amoebas, these folks can at least brag that they have more experience than an amoeba... (Big win, apparently)

In the world of amoebas, what is the greatest experience an amoeba could boast? Certainly nothing that humans care about (so trite in that world).

In a world of Humans with mind, what is the greatest experience a human can boast? Certainly nothing that an amoeba could grasp...

That said, In a world of atheists with mind, what is the greatest experience that an atheist might boast? Certainly nothing compared to that of the atheist who takes on the ride of faith.


Will somebody please bring me my cape!

Probably the hardest thing for those who believe in God to accept from the atheist camp is that our lives have no ultimate meaning or purpose. The only meaning we can glean is that which we assign. In other words, you make your own meaning and purpose for living. We truly are no different than any other creature on this planet, except that we can comprehend our own deaths. Animals have instincts which tell them to avoid danger and stay alive; we have our brains. But if believing that God has all the answers works for you, go for it. I would never condemn anyone's beliefs as long as they caused no one harm.

That's a good word, Jimmy.


If someone trusts in God it should make them more graceful toward others but sadly that isn't always the case, because we're all still human and want to hit back when we are slapped on the cheek.




.

Probably the hardest thing for those who believe in God to accept from the atheist camp is that our lives have no ultimate meaning or purpose. The only meaning we can glean is that which we assign. In other words, you make your own meaning and purpose for living. We truly are no different than any other creature on this planet, except that we can comprehend our own deaths. Animals have instincts which tell them to avoid danger and stay alive; we have our brains. But if believing that God has all the answers works for you, go for it. I would never condemn anyone's beliefs as long as they caused no one harm.

Well that's very honest. I think you are right...Its extremely difficult for Christian believers in God to grasp life without meaning and purpose. (Since the whole edict from our belief system is about eternal life) .

What's interesting is how life plays out for each respective person, based on that difference. I don't know of any studies off hand, that have measured this.

I think you are right...Its extremely difficult for Christian believers in God to grasp life without meaning and purpose.

yeah, but one man's "meaning and purpose"....is just "mere existence" to another. and vice versa.

my meaning and purpose is to be the best husband, family man, teacher, bandmate, and friend that i can be to those whose paths i cross. my purpose is to do as little harm as possible. i try to leave things AT least as good as i found them. i know i've touched people, and i like to believe i've made a difference in some people's lives.

some might view that as a "life without meaning or purpose".....but for ME, my life lacks neither.

meaning and existence - We sire children, teach them based on what our elders taught us, expanding upon it, progressing as a race and a society. Life is FULL of wonderful experiences and indulgences. Be excellent to each other and party on (wild stallyn!). Simple and brilliant.

This has much to do with socialist ideals as well- when you take the religious variable from the equation, it all makes logical sense for humankind to find common ground, band together and work for the good of the whole. Capitalism becomes deplorable and even religion by it's own tenants should be vigorously opposed to a concept that embraces all of the 7 deadly sins..

But I'm rambling now.. Paperdog, yod, thanks for opening up to a dialogue that is insightful and reasonable. If all religious folk took your respective approaches, there wouldn't be much if any problems between religious and non-religious peoples (I would hope).

A rather basic but nice woman told me once she assumed I'd become a Christian to keep from going to hell.

As nicely as I could I explained that hell was exactly nothing to me until I became a believer. Threatening non-believers with that is like telling me that if I don't change my ways a giant crock pot will fall out of the sky and brain me.

I came home from the war knowing for some reason that I believed in God. (That's called 'grace.') So I researched the Christian faith very carefully and read the Bible over and over until it started to make sense to me (I'm a bit slow) Then I joined a church after much research of their purported beliefs. I will say I was plenty shocked by how ridiculous and how worldly many if not most are. When I found one that seemed to follow the Bible I joined and stayed.

Talbot

meaning and existence - We sire children, teach them based on what our elders taught us, expanding upon it, progressing as a race and a society. Life is FULL of wonderful experiences and indulgences. Be excellent to each other and party on (wild stallyn!). Simple and brilliant.

This has much to do with socialist ideals as well- when you take the religious variable from the equation, it all makes logical sense for humankind to find common ground, band together and work for the good of the whole. Capitalism becomes deplorable and even religion by it's own tenants should be vigorously opposed to a concept that embraces all of the 7 deadly sins..

But I'm rambling now.. Paperdog, yod, thanks for opening up to a dialogue that is insightful and reasonable. If all religious folk took your respective approaches, there wouldn't be much if any problems between religious and non-religious peoples (I would hope).

I read this and all I could do was shake my head. DUH! WHAT!

The only honesty and truth were the words "I'm rambling now"

This is serious stuff... Stop making it out to be nothing. You just wrote a more twisted post than Vinny ever could.

CAPITALISM IS NOT DEPLORABLE... NOTHING IS FREE!!!!!!

If you're a religious believer, and you don't believe these are the same reasons that believers are moral, ask yourself this: If I could persuade you today, with 100% certainty, that there were no gods and no afterlife... would you suddenly start stealing and murdering and setting fire to buildings?

Probably not suddenly, but I'd get around to it.

I think you are right...Its extremely difficult for Christian believers in God to grasp life without meaning and purpose.

yeah, but one man's "meaning and purpose"....is just "mere existence" to another. and vice versa.

my meaning and purpose is to be the best husband, family man, teacher, bandmate, and friend that i can be to those whose paths i cross. my purpose is to do as little harm as possible. i try to leave things AT least as good as i found them. i know i've touched people, and i like to believe i've made a difference in some people's lives.

some might view that as a "life without meaning or purpose".....but for ME, my life lacks neither.

Define 'Best husband, family man, teacher,...'

In an interview, The Iceman (a very famous enforcer for the italian mob..now serving life in prison) parlayed pretty much the same thing you just said ... And no doubt, he really was all that...a virtual role model..but somehow (and you know what I'm talking about) , he exemplifies what I said earlier...'The Important becomes tragically the unimportant" for tha lack of a vision to see beyond the immediate existence.



Mark Vs The Iceman.

Mark is not a murderer; But The Iceman is. Mark is not immoral; But The Iceman is. Both of them are stand-up when it comes to family and friends.

If Mark were ever to be presented the opportunity to help the Iceman change his evil bad ways, what precisely would give Mark the necessary leverage, which offers any hope of success?

Mark might be tempted to 'normalize' (bring to scale, convention and balance) the plane of existence that now includes the Iceman. Mark might be inclined to raise the Iceman's plane to Mark's level, (rather than lowering Mark's plane to the Iceman's level). There's the first glimmer of normalization. But why in that fashion and not the reverse? (Universal imperatives?...Enter Ethics!)

Because the Iceman is who he is... (and in his interview, he stated no regrets about the deeds, but definitely missed his family and might have 'thought' to do things differently in his life)...there is no way that Mark can really normalize the existence on these 'mortal' terms.

So, what if we invented a God (For now) and what if in the mental fabrication, we saw intriguing logic and inspiration, which affords us the tools we need to normalize existence.

To normalize existence, A with B, we need a 'C', to bridge and define the new terms of existence. C is that leverage, which which Both Mark and the Iceman would need to bridge and ultimately normalize the existence.

(Mark i hope you are getting the jazz part of this crazy tune

For Christians, the ''C" is viewed as GOD, who mediates existence. This in turn frees us believers up to envision the next plane, and so on. (all under a normalized plan) When you do this long enough, the pattern becomes clearer...We are discovering the principles of longevity. We value "the important remain important" and that it becomes carried forward.

The Iceman and pretty much any good standing atheist admittedly wont/cant ever try to see that far...beyond the immediate realm. As such, there wont any be hell-fire and brimstone for it...Instead, they simply wont be burdened with anything beyond what they could see. It is at that threshold of their vision, as the lights go out, that "the important will tragically become the unimportant". And that my friends, is the primary difference between a believer and an atheist.

My cape ...Please!

meaning and existence - We sire children, teach them based on what our elders taught us, expanding upon it, progressing as a race and a society. Life is FULL of wonderful experiences and indulgences. Be excellent to each other and party on (wild stallyn!). Simple and brilliant.

This has much to do with socialist ideals as well- when you take the religious variable from the equation, it all makes logical sense for humankind to find common ground, band together and work for the good of the whole. Capitalism becomes deplorable and even religion by it's own tenants should be vigorously opposed to a concept that embraces all of the 7 deadly sins..

But I'm rambling now.. Paperdog, yod, thanks for opening up to a dialogue that is insightful and reasonable. If all religious folk took your respective approaches, there wouldn't be much if any problems between religious and non-religious peoples (I would hope).

I read this and all I could do was shake my head. DUH! WHAT!

The only honesty and truth were the words "I'm rambling now"

This is serious stuff... Stop making it out to be nothing. You just wrote a more twisted post than Vinny ever could.

CAPITALISM IS NOT DEPLORABLE... NOTHING IS FREE!!!!!!

Thanks for being the first to toss insults in this revised part of the discussion. Your reputation remains intact.

Yes it's serious, nothing I wrote is twisted, except when put against irrational logic. Capitalism is explicitly the most destructive economic system mankind has ever devised. It pillages finite resources without any consideration for the good of mankind or his home, enriching the most deplorable few while economically enslaving the majority to it's unsustainable means.

Can you argue that capitalism doesn't embrace, and even reward, the deadly sins? No, you can't. Nobody can, because truth cannot be changed no matter how much you don't like it.

Organized religion has endorsed and embraced capitalism, and therefore is suspect at best, and damnable at worst. I applaud those who are religious who understand this and step outside of their organizations or keep a balanced and thoughtful approach to it.

Not so much for the angry hotheads who fly off the handle at anyone who disagrees with their religious or economic views.