Planetguy wrote:so ted, i have to ask since i know you consider yourself a devout follower of the bible.
by your reasoning above.....do you cotton to these tenets that are put forth in the bible?
I'm SO glad you asked!
As mentioned in an earlier place, these verses taken by themselves lack all context for who said it and why.
Should I go through each one individually?
In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
The biggest problem I find in rightly interpreting the scriptures in not only unbelievers, but christians is one of thinking the scriptures are written in english. There is no such thing as a perfect translation so one should strive to understand what the original (hebrew) culture and language would mean by a word, instead of accepting the language and culture of the translated word(s). For example a "slave" to the English was a person who was to be subjected to every whim of a master. Not so in Israel....ever.
A slave in the hebrew economy is another word for "personal servant". They VOLUNTEERED to be slaves if they had no way of making a living. After 7 years of service, the "slave" could choose if they wanted to continue serving for the rest of their life. Many, if not most, did.
There were severe penalties for mistreating one's "slave"
In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
Right, and that is a specific group of people living at a specific time who had tried to destroy Israel first. No different than what the Marines did in Kandahar. War is hell.
But that doesn't compare to the Koran which says all infidels (anyone who isn't muslim) are to submit to Islam, by force if necessary. If they will not, they are to be treated harshly, even unto death.
In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
That was because he had just wiped out the world's superpower (Egypt) and the Pharaoh, who presumes himself to be a god.
All it took was water. Lots of it.
In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
Again lacking context. Moses was married to a Midianite woman, and his father-in-law Jethro, was one of the elders of Israel. However, the Midianites were treacherous against Israel in the wilderness, denying them even water to drink. When they couldn't destroy Israel militarily, the (false) prophet Baalam came up with a plan to infiltrate Israel with midianite women to draw them away from God, because that was ultimately where they got their strength.
So Midian, like the Amalekites and the Edomites were existential threats to Israel. Israel disobeyed God's order to end their opposition and it has continually cost them throughout history, even unto today.
The Midianites continually came back for more war because they were allowed to survive by the Israelites. Saddam Hussein was a descendant of the Amalakites. Even 4,000 years later it is still biting them in the arse that they didn't obey God in the first place.
But again, this is all in the act of war. At no time in history did God ever command anyone to kill the innocent....like the Quran does.
In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
No He doesn't. He command that anyone who lives among the tribes of Israel
(only) and is leading the people astray after other gods shall be put to death.
That's very different than saying anyone who doesn't believe like us should be subdued or killed, as the Koran teaches unabashedly.
The Torah (Law of Moses) are commandments given to the specific people standing in Midian at Sinai at a specific time because they had been slaves in Egypt and had no government. Not terribly long afterward, God's law came under secular government authority once the people chose Saul to be King.
However the Law of Moses (aka Torah) was/is the Constitution for birthing a new nation that was wandering homeless in the wilderness. We need to realize that the Priests were the Police force, the Prosecutors and Defense Attorneys, Judges and executioners of legal rulings. There was no king before Saul, only Priests to run the nation. This was a protective measure to ensure the survival of the entire nation. One could leave the tribes any time they wanted, but they would not be allowed to sway them to other gods and remain.
I also remind you that
everyone in the tribes of Israel had just been delivered from Egypt and saw the handiwork of God many times. To go whoring after another god under those circumstances was open rebellion (treason) against the truth and could negatively affect the survival of the entire nation.
In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
Wow...that's a big stretch. No, He was being critical of how the religious leaders were making up their own "law" as if it was endorsed by God's Law. We still see that today...but there was no mention of disobedient children in this passage and it intellectually dishonest to mischaracterize this as such.
In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
another mischaracterization of the context.
Jesus was telling a parable using a fictitious king and his servants. The parable is about faithfulness with what you've been given. It's a warning to all of us personally about not wasting the gifts/talents He has given us to do evil.
It is true that He was ultimately saying those who reject this gift will be judged at the end of their life, but it has nothing to do with killing anyone.
yeah, there are parts in the koran that advocate violence and killing. and there are going to be whack job muslims that WILL take it literally. but the same CAN be said of the bible.
No, it can't. You can take it out of context and try to misrepresent what it actually and literally says.
You don't have to take the Koran out of context to see it is advocating violence against anyone who isn't muslim.
thankfully most muslims do NOT take that stuff literally and don't see it as license to kill.....much the same as you don't believe it's ok to "kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently." (Deuteronomy 13:6-16)
That is only true in nations that have a secular government. When Islam finally subdues that nation, those same peaceful muslims will become "devout" followers of the violent dictates of the pedophile prophet.
so if as you say in your definition of a "devout follower"...
"A devout follower of any particular religion is someone that is intimately familiar with their respective holy books, and a[/b] doer of the words contained therein." [/b]
Here's the crux of the biscuit:
The Koran is 1/8th the size of the bible. All muslim are required to memorize it, though most of it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Once it has been set to memory, an imam can come along at any time in your life and "teach" the meaning of a passage. In this way, every single muslim is carrying a seed that can be watered into a violent plant by the right teacher.
That is the explanation for christian anti-semitism also. If you remember, the printing press wasnt' invented until the 16th century, so the overwhelming majority of christians were spoon fed theology (not scripture) by european priests who were reading only the last 1/3 of the bible in latin translated from greek translations of hebrew speakers.
Lots of room for mistakes there. But once the printing press was invented, the average saint could read the Word for themselves, and the Vatican (or other christian "leaders") were not able to manipulate that anti-semitic seed as easily. Hitler had willing accomplices in christians like Gerhardt Kittel, but the truth was still available for people like Dietrich Bonnhoffer to arise.
And again, the biggest difference is that christians themselves will oppose those who are manipulating the Word of God for violence these days.
Show me, please, where "devout" muslims are opposing those of their ranks who study the Koran the most.
You can't do it because your entire premise is wrong.
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