General Music Chat

you're welcome KG. my bill will be forthcoming.

A devout follower of any particular religion is someone that is intimately familiar with their respective holy books, and a doer of the words contained therein.

It is precisely the devout muslims who are the radical ones, because they are only obeying what the Quran says. All one has to do is look at the brutality and bloodthirst in nations which are Islamic to know the truth about Islam.

And it doesn't take much more than common sense to see it clearly. Unfortunately that seems rare in America today and it doesn't help that the current Administration is working so hard to confuse the issue.

so ted, i have to ask since i know you consider yourself a devout follower of the bible.

by your reasoning above.....do you cotton to these tenets that are put forth in the bible?

In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.


yeah, there are parts in the koran that advocate violence and killing. and there are going to be whack job muslims that WILL take it literally. but the same CAN be said of the bible.

thankfully most muslims do NOT take that stuff literally and don't see it as license to kill.....much the same as you don't believe it's ok to "kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently." (Deuteronomy 13:6-16)

so if as you say in your definition of a "devout follower"...

"A devout follower of any particular religion is someone that is intimately familiar with their respective holy books, and a[/b] doer of the words contained therein." [/b]

are YOU killing "those who worship a different god or who worships the lord differently" as a "devout" follower would by your definition?

Were you not so ignorant of scripture you would understand that with the advent of Christ there came a new dispensation. Here is a small part of it.

Mat 5:38 You know that you have been taught, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."
Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to try to get even with a person who has done something to you. When someone slaps your right cheek, turn and let that person slap your other cheek.
Mat 5:40 If someone sues you for your shirt, give up your coat as well.
Mat 5:41 If a soldier forces you to carry his pack one mile, carry it two miles.
Mat 5:42 When people ask you for something, give it to them. When they want to borrow money, lend it to them.
Mat 5:43 You have heard people say, "Love your neighbors and hate your enemies."
Mat 5:44 But I tell you to love your enemies and pray for anyone who mistreats you.
Mat 5:45 Then you will be acting like your Father in heaven. He makes the sun rise on both good and bad people. And he sends rain for the ones who do right and for the ones who do wrong.

To fully understand scripture you have to know the nature of the living God, not simply read the words without understanding and knowledge,

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

If you do not fear the Lord, then you can have no knowledge of Him. Spiritual things can only be revealed through the spirit, not through the interpretation of carnal man.

To fully understand scripture you have to know the nature of the living God, not simply read the words without understanding and knowledge, .

yeah, as YOU read, understand, and KNOW the words of the koran.

bravo. spoken w the all too typical smug hypocrisy of yet another holier than thou christian.

Jesus says ... http://youtu.be/2RAyHi0GlBk

To fully understand scripture you have to know the nature of the living God, not simply read the words without understanding and knowledge, .

yeah, as YOU read, understand, and KNOW the words of the koran.

bravo. spoken w the all too typical smug hypocrisy of yet another holier than thou christian.

At least I can read and understand this: Try reading it yourself. By the way, did you know a lot of the Quran is from the Bible? Later it was added to by a false prophet.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran ... olence.htm

and at least i can tell when yet another christian w an axe to grind against anyone who's not ready to toe the christian line writes nothing more than a hatchet job op-ed piece. (spreading more of that "love" around i suppose)

so, how hard do you think it would be to find a similar op-ed piece that jerry picks verses from the bible, presents them out of context, and casts them in an unfavorable light?

by your reasoning above.....do you cotton to these tenets that are put forth in the bible?
In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

God also prescribes how to treat slaves, which is a lot better than the non-christian cultures. Often times slavery was a way for the poor to survive by entering into the "household" under contract, so to speak. Unfortunately your definition of slavery and therefore tainted view of it, comes solely from American and Roman slavery stories, which are wholly un-Chritian/Jew like.

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/sla ... .html#laws

In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

The reason for the command to dispose of the Amalekites and Midianites is explicitly given in the texts. If you believe America is attacked and is wrong to defend itself, or retaliate, then you're obviously not going to like the answer to this dilemma, but It is stated as "Vengeance" (which is HIS perogative ~ and he used Israel to execute it).

Numbers 31:1 leading up to your citation explains this in further detail, but basically it is not without cause ~ they were a nomadic tribe of raiders, actively opposed (read, hostile) towards Israelites.

"The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, 18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor.” Num 25.16f

Without a back drop of who the Midianites were and, and who Peor was, and their actions and deceptions, you're not going to understand why God is called a "man of war". He is also called an avenger.

On a side note, the band of tribesmen who bought Joseph and sold him to Egypt, were Midianites.

I won't go into the details of the Amalekites, but given the fact you didn't care to ask "why" God called them to war in the first place (I mean come on... you could'nt read 20 or so verses leading up to the verse?).

In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

NOT ANYONE

The target of this command are Israelites - if you don't want to be an Israelite, then leave town - don't stay in it and entice others is the message to get from this verse. It's not advocating you go stone anyone you come across that isn't part of the covenant.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[a] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt,

In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

Disobedient does not refer those who take cookies out of the jar when told not to. It is those children who refuse to obey, stubbornly, and will not,even after being brought before the elders, refuse to give in. Basically. It is not done without a trial of some sort.

Luke 19?

yeah, there are parts in the koran that advocate violence and killing. and there are going to be whack job muslims that WILL take it literally. but the same CAN be said of the bible.

thankfully most muslims do NOT take that stuff literally and don't see it as license to kill.....much the same as you don't believe it's ok to "kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently." (Deuteronomy 13:6-16)

so if as you say in your definition of a "devout follower"...

"A devout follower of any particular religion is someone that is intimately familiar with their respective holy books, and a[/b] doer of the words contained therein." [/b]

are YOU killing "those who worship a different god or who worships the lord differently" as a "devout" follower would by your definition?

So who is worse?
The person who is told to murder, and murders.
The person who is told not to murder, and murders.
The person who is not told anything, and murders?

Christians are told not to murder. So those who do, are not acting christian like - that is they are inconstant with their faith.

Planet Guy, with all due respect, you have a chip on your shoulder and it shows in the way you treat the texts you cite, as well as the way you give leniency towards other religions - see bolded quote above. Is it true that God is wrathful? Yes. Is it true God uses means other than lightening to deal with his enemies? Yes - he causes foreign militaries to strike his own people, and dominate them (AD 70) for their constant wandering from His commands doing what they are explicitly told not to do, and not doing what they are told to do.

That doesn't make them worse than the Greeks whose idea of gaining political stature was through murder, incest and bribery, or Rome's gladatorial games we fantasize about, but wouldn't wanna live in it. Christianity has at least kept us (generally speaking) from sinking to a Lord of the Flies mentality as a culture. Without religion, you have not universal police officer telling you what is fair and what is not - that becomes dictated by people with no moral standard but their own.

Cheers.

Let's all just agree that ALL religious texts promote violence and hatred, at various and arguable levels, but still do nonetheless; and that they all say they are the one true gospel.

I swear arguing over religion is just pointless and stupid. Now I'm officially arguing against arguing. Let's talk about how much we don't like justin beiber or something else equally more useful.

maybe jimmy, dawg has a mild case of Tourette's Syndrome?

Dane ...Its futile to suck off Jimmy Danger like that.. First off ...YOU'LL starve... Second, you will only confirm the spinelessness about you that Lynard tried to warn us about.

You are a damaged individual, and it's probably why you fail at everything you do. At first you just annoyed me, then you just bored me and now I think you need some help. Good luck with your issues.

Jimmy, As a human being, I run circles around you in terms of success... Even when I make a mistake or fail, its still superior over your best successes...
And jimmy, I don't annoy you ... It's the truth about you that annoys you. The truth is, you are a pedestrian...

by your reasoning above.....do you cotton to these tenets that are put forth in the bible?
In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

God also prescribes how to treat slaves, which is a lot better than the non-christian cultures. Often times slavery was a way for the poor to survive by entering into the "household" under contract, so to speak. Unfortunately your definition of slavery and therefore tainted view of it, comes solely from American and Roman slavery stories, which are wholly un-Chritian/Jew like.

i was raised jewish...do you really think my "definition of slavery" is limited to "american and roman stories"????

....yeah, i forgot how easy it was back when the jews were given roofs over their heads (and not allowed to worship as they chose)....blessed be those caring and loving egyptians that took such good of the jews.

still....good to know there's bad slavery....and the good kind that god approves of.



good that you took the time to detail and explain the rationale behind those bible points i brought up but you missed the bigger point i was trying to make.

and that's this: when you simply take a few lines or verses from any holy book and toss them out there w/o context it's easy to misinterpret and draw (sometimes) wrong conclusions.

as for having a chip on my shoulder...nah. let me set the record straight. i just scoff when any member of ANY religion points to god as their reason to look down upon someone that does not hold their same beliefs and as a justification for intolerance and hatred.

as an atheist...i do not look down upon or feel any superiority to christians, jews, muslims, etc. to each their own and more power to 'em. just spare me the preaching about love... cos actions speak louder than words.

planetguy you are much appreciated and admired.. don't think for a minute you are any less of a person because of your beliefs..anybody judge a person by their beliefs is short sighted.. deeds and character are what should be valued, and you are one valuable person,

planetguy you are much appreciated and admired.. don't think for a minute you are any less of a person because of your beliefs..anybody judge a person by their beliefs is short sighted.. deeds and character are what should be valued, and you are one valuable person,

me think i'm any LESS of a person because of my beliefs??....not bloody likely matey!

all the same dane....i appreciate the tip of the hat and sincerely send it back your way, friend.

by your reasoning above.....do you cotton to these tenets that are put forth in the bible?
In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

God also prescribes how to treat slaves, which is a lot better than the non-christian cultures. Often times slavery was a way for the poor to survive by entering into the "household" under contract, so to speak. Unfortunately your definition of slavery and therefore tainted view of it, comes solely from American and Roman slavery stories, which are wholly un-Chritian/Jew like.

i was raised jewish...do you really think my "definition of slavery" is limited to "american and roman stories"????

....yeah, i forgot how easy it was back when the jews were given roofs over their heads (and not allowed to worship as they chose)....blessed be those caring and loving egyptians that took such good of the jews.

still....good to know there's bad slavery....and the good kind that god approves of.

And I was raised Atheist. I only know what your conception of slavery is based on what you wrote, which appeared to cast Christians as evil slave owners. Can slavery be abused by Christians? Certainly - but religion isn't telling them to is the point.

Deuteronomy 15:16
16 It shall come about if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he fares well with you;

Non Christians don't have a standard ~ well, they may abuse, rape, kill their slaves, but at least they're not HYPOCRITES in doing so! right?

And I was raised Atheist. I only know what your conception of slavery is based on what you wrote, which appeared to cast Christians as evil slave owners.

"know"...no...you don't "know" what my conception is. you mistakenly might think you do based on how you interpret what i wrote...and perhaps that is in fact what you're saying (ah, the limitations of conversing w/o sitting across from one another).

again the point i was trying to make is that when given merely a quick cursory glance at jerry picked verses from any holy book...it's easy to make leaps of logic that cast a poor light on the reading material....whether it's the koran...or the bible.

Non Christians don't have a standard ~ well, they may abuse, rape, kill their slaves, but at least they're not HYPOCRITES in doing so! right?

what nonsense is that? you're gonna invoke that same swiss cheese argument that when christian slave holders abused their slaves ...they weren't acting as christians???? i've heard the exact same argument used by devout muslims who condemn the violent behavior of radical muslims. yet that is usually written off and dismissed w offhanded derision.

yet when a christian commits wrong doing the ol' "well, they're not being a true christian" get of jail for free card gets played.

right. no double standard and nothing hypocrital there.

yet when a christian commits wrong doing the ol' "well, they're not being a true christian" get of jail for free card gets played.

I think you just don't understand how the Christian faith works Planetguy ... y' see Jesus has already died for their sins, winning forgiveness for them from the otherwise well deserved punishments of his cranky old Father in Heaven, so the more sins they add to their accounts to be forgiven, the greater the relative value that can be attached to their salvation.