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#21130 by Irish Anthony
Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:20 am
First off, in respone to you I.A.: Iran is a terrorist state, period. They harbor them to the point of 50,000 and up, that is enough to label it that.

hey g.a in 1978 the I.R.A membership in the republic of ireland totaled 80.000 plus so that would make ireland the biggest terrorist state in the world.....no. :shock:

im not saying iran is all beams and joy(far from it) but there are normal people just like you and me who just want to live there lives with the people they love...they may be a different yes.... in religion and looks but at the end of the day they are people...there are good and bad everywhere but simply writing off an entire country because there are a few nutjobs who make the press well that means we have failed as human beings..if you preach of love (and every religion does) how can you in the next breath condem your fellow man to die...

"we are human beings ...god damn it....our lives have value"

#21131 by Guitaranatomy
Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:42 am
irish anthony wrote:hey g.a in 1978 the I.R.A membership in the republic of ireland totaled 80.000 plus so that would make ireland the biggest terrorist state in the world.....no. :shock:

im not saying iran is all beams and joy(far from it) but there are normal people just like you and me who just want to live there lives with the people they love...they may be a different yes.... in religion and looks but at the end of the day they are people...there are good and bad everywhere but simply writing off an entire country because there are a few nutjobs who make the press well that means we have failed as human beings..if you preach of love (and every religion does) how can you in the next breath condem your fellow man to die...

"we are human beings ...god damn it....our lives have value"



Well, I guess the facts speak for themselves with those numbers. But make clear one thing, I.A., I was basically not speaking of the people in Iran, I am talking about the government. Who controls the country an the terrorist regimes in it, they build them, they use them. It is their weapon and a maniacal one at that. These people are not using them in defense because they have nothing else, they use it because it kills in mass numbers and with brutality, and they love to kill anyone not like them. They are extremists.

Look, I know you came from Ireland and I think we all know how nuts it has gotten over there. I really do not know much about the I.R.A., so I am sorry I cannot be exactly specific on that, but since you were there I can just go by your words. Sorry you had to endure that, sorry anyone has to. That is what saddens me for Iraq, and Iran, and any nation that is being ripped apart by dictatorships and terrorism.

Let me kind of explain what I think pissed off Craig like that. There are many people who are very ungrateful to America, and here we have offered them nothing but freedom (Well, I am sure a few people could contridict this, even myself, lol). For instance, Iraq now has no more of that war mongering dictator, but yet those people seem to really despise of us anyhow - I have heard though that he controlled the terrorism better than we do and that is one of the reasons why. Their government needs to step up by the way.

But back on topic, it is tricky I think for us as American's to do the right thing and see people throw things in our face. American's are very prideful, so I guess it hurts even more. Maybe other countries do not look at it the same way, I would not know and I do not profess to know since I am not of another country.

I think America is arrogant and way too prideful personally, but we all have a right to defend what we believe in. I may not agree with any view that is passed on here, but it is not my place to tell someone off for having it. The only time I will react is if it is a personal assault on myself, then you will see me respond. I do not take kind to anyone who is racist or extreme in any light. I try to act mature and not like most 19 year olds who will just jump on a dime for an argument.

I think you understand now, I.A., why Craig responded like that. At least that is why I think he did, I am sure he gladly correct me if I am wrong (Sorry Craig if I am, not trying to put words in your mouth).

This world is a very hard place to live in. Let us remember though, at least in this country right now we are free enough to talk to one another and have this debate, in some countries there is no internet, and no rights at all. So albeit America is nuts at times, at least we still have more of a sense of freedom than other countries.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

#21132 by Craig Maxim
Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:45 am
Irminsul wrote:

Lions and tigers and bears. Yes, they are out there. But all you are talking about are a list maybes!



We keep a well maintained military and all the advanced technological weapons that go with it, just for "Maybe". Responsible adults (not me) keep a sizeable portion of their income in savings, in addition to retirement plans, for "Maybe". People have catastrophic life insurance policies for "Maybe". Many artists who dream of making it big, also get college educations for "Maybe".

New Orleans is what happens when "Maybe" isn't taken seriously enough. Which, after all, is your argument. "Why worry about maybe?" Survival often depends on maybe. That's why. But lulled into a false sense of confidence, which you are portraying here, is exactly why things like 9-11 were possible.

And once again, let me repeat, that EXPERTS don't believe a nuclear weapon being detonated in America is a "Maybe". They are convinced it "WILL" occur.

Irminsul wrote: Sorry, but you will not get anywhere with a list of subjunctives if you are trying to paint Iran with the German Nazi brush.


Radical islamists, DESERVE such a brush. Rather than wanting a supreme "race" however, their vision is a supreme "religion". It is no less intolerant, and no less dangerous than Hitler. Remember, Hitler at one time was a wannabe painter. Had he been accepted at art school, rather than rejected, we may very well not be having this conversation right now. He was a nobody at one time. But he was a charismatic, hate-filled nobody. He rose in power to become somebody, and the world paid the price for it.

Shame on you Irmy. You are far too knowledgeable about history to be that naive of it's lessons. What's that saying? "Those who refuse to remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

Irminsul wrote:
You went on to give a good dressing down to the Muslim religion, but you know what?
(snipped)
They are moral, responsible and communaly minded people who love their families like you do yours.


Yes, that is often the case. I have had quite a few Muslim friends and we discussed theological issues, which were debated with respect. One of my best friends like that, had a wife and tons of kids, and I believe that if I ever needed something, he might provide it to me, before even some of my own family would. However, I have also been with him, when the Arab news came on, and told them that the Jews knew about 9-11 but didn't tell the American government, with the proof being that NO Jews died in the Twin Towers. Apparently, Jews all know when things are going down, and share that news, and called out sick that day. Ridiculous isn't it? My friend is actually quite intelligent. But he believed it, at first, because it is a cultural phenomenon. They hate Israel. They WANT to believe, even the most absurd statements, like the one going out on Arab television. That kind of hatred, even among normally peace loving individuals, like my friend, can work even the tamest of people into a frenzy, with chaos potentially resulting.

And to disprove your "feel-good" attitude towards Muslims, regarding lulling us into a false sense of security... Do you really believe that people of German ancestry are natural-born racists and murderers? Hitler was not alone. An ENTIRE NATION OF PEOPLE helped him accomplish his evil ends. They WERE ALL, to varying degrees, aware of what was going on. But Hitler had successfully worked them into a frenzy, believing that ALL of Germany's economic problems were due to Jews. That is an example of what is possible when, normally well intentioned people, buy into a culture of hatred, that turns them into something else. In the midst of such evil, there were courageous souls that helped the Jews, but this was the exception, and not the rule. Children turned their parents in to the S.S. for God's sake. They were more loyal to a single personality, than their entire family or conscience.

You are probably familiar with it, but for others reading, to see how culture, peer pressure and situational morality affect quite normal people in frightening ways. See what they are capable of, by looking up the "Milgram Experiment".

Irminsul wrote:
Best thing for us to do is leave Iran the hell alone. That's all they want anyway. It's all they have ever wanted. If more countries cleaved to that notion, there wouldn't be anymore need for glorious trumped up invasions.



Bullshit.

Of course they want to be left alone. They also have, as state policy, the goal of destroying Israel as a nation. Not to mention teaching their children from the earliest age, that killing Americans is laudable, and even righteous. We are not talking about a single nutcase somewhere, or a small skinhead group. We are talking an entire culture of a nation. A nation that has a strong military, and seeks a nuclear arsenal. You cannot possibly be naive enough to believe that merely leaving them alone, will solve hundreds of years of hatred and murderous intent.

Hitler wanted to be left alone too. And to our shame, we did just that... for a while.

Look Irminsul, and Anthony too...

America is not as good as many Americans would like to believe, but neither are we as evil as some of the world would like to believe.

History is replete with individuals and nations that seek to control the destiny of the world for their own ends, and will murder countless innocents on the way to accomplishing it. It is always only a matter of time, before the next one, gets closer to his goals, or at least wreaks havoc on a worlwide scale in pursuit of them.

#21135 by Craig Maxim
Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:07 am
irish anthony wrote:hey g.a in 1978 the I.R.A membership in the republic of ireland totaled 80.000 plus so that would make ireland the biggest terrorist state in the world......



Well, like they say, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

;-)

History is generally left to sort it all out, and even then, it depends on whose history you accept.

#21136 by da skunk
Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:16 am
bY THE WAY tHANX AT LEAST SOME ONE TO F!@#$% SOMEONE . tHAT WAS STUPID AND BELOW WHAT SEEMS TTO BE A WELL READ AROGANT PRICK........rreality check ....if we go after the guy that was responsible for 911 we will be safer....wait there is a whole lot of them over there in afganistan.......hell looky over there we got ourselves some terroists in iraq and thems are gonna get us with them mass destruction bombamagigs...wait we tapped into a phone overhere that says in pakeestan them have training camps..............man i was fishing in the desert and had a vision that iraneeees really have the bad ones......well my butt buddie in saudi he really has over there hell even in my dad's new country kuwaiit they gotta have om i talked to my vice president and hefigured out that therrrrr in miami well hell there in tampa well i know sure as hell we ain't got them in texas.............................................. If i can explain myself....This is bigger than anybody or anything. If you think for one moment that i don't love my country because of my politics your wrong! if anything i believe that my country and my countrymen are worth dying for. this is where i have a problem...We will not win this with the blood of those boys and girls...no.................. men and woman who are serving us couragesly. the way it's playing it's self out is that we are not protecting our country we are protecting our oil interests. we have basically put a dollar value on our soldiers....they are not money..and i cannot believ that we are a country that has done that...... if you want to protect our interests do what brazil did. make us independent of the middle east and there oil.....riht now they have all the power...without there oil we have no military.....no fuel no greas no oil no military..... VOIALA......Here's to the ole f!@#$ you...all they need to do to get us is cut us off and they say f**k YOU...................... REALITY CHECK CRAIG. so yee haw to good ole oil loving and oil producing bush fuc!@$$% family.

#21137 by da skunk
Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:24 am
yeee haw :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted:

#21138 by Guitaranatomy
Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:24 am
Irminsul wrote:You went on to give a good dressing down to the Muslim religion, but you know what? I huge number of the worlds' people adhere to it. And guess what...the overwhelming majority of them are modern, peaceful people. I've lived around them and worked with them for years. I'd trust them with my household, and with everything I hold dear. They are moral, responsible and communaly minded people who love their families like you do yours. Sure, there are murderous nuts among them. But to go into some sort of round-house condemnation of them won't advance your case one iota.

Best thing for us to do is leave Iran the hell alone. That's all they want anyway. It's all they have ever wanted. If more countries cleaved to that notion, there wouldn't be anymore need for glorious trumped up invasions.


In response to the Muslim religion part first: That religion is actually a peaceful one that has been twisted by prejudice individuals to be something bad. They are not bad people, it is factions, and let me press that word factions, that are doing these horrible acts of violence against people. People who condemn the Muslim religion as a whole are just naive and ignorant, they need to do more research.

As far as what you said about Iran, Irminsul. Yes, they want us to leave them alone so they can go about building a bomb to blow up Israel (As Craig said). That is all they are after, war. I would suggest constantly keeping an eye on them, but not to strike at this current and present time. I am sure they have been building nuclear bombs though, I just hope they are not foolish enough to use them. Then again, we are dealing with extremists who do not favor their lives as much as they do destruction.

As a Jewish person, I must say Israel means a lot to me, I consider them my own people, and probably that only small faction of them that is left. So I defend them as much as possible, except when I think they are wrong. If they are wrong I will condemn them as well. I do not like how they have handled many issues, they are war mongers as well.

When you ignore demigods like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, you end up with more problems than you can bare. We need a president who will shut the Heck up with their "We do not talk to terrorist" sh*t and will go talk to them. Talk to them darnit, it will not hurt your behind to sit in a room with them and converse, people do it everyday, just talk damnit, try and find a solution. We are very ignorant in this country at times, but that is probably the stupidest thing we have ever done. Sorry for ranting, I just hate that about this country, we are so high and mighty we have to ignore people because they do not obey us. Yes, we have a supremacy complex, we need to work on that desperately.

So you can clearly see where I stand on this issue, Irminsul.

Peace, GuitarAnatomy.

#21141 by Starfish Scott
Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:34 am
If this is about music, why it is suddenly about something other than music?

LOCK THIS THREAD BEFORE IT GETS WORSE.

#21142 by da skunk
Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:35 am
amen amen amen... lets talk to them.... there bombs will never be bigger than ours............... we can wipe them off the planet later. right now let's talk to them....

#21156 by Craig Maxim
Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:50 am
sanshouheil wrote:YEE HAA !! Boy do iI love living in a free country (well somewhat free anyway) Try having this converstion in public in Iran.



It may in fact be possible... in a few years. ;-)

#21158 by Guitaranatomy
Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:54 am
Craig Maxim wrote:
sanshouheil wrote:YEE HAA !! Boy do iI love living in a free country (well somewhat free anyway) Try having this converstion in public in Iran.



It may in fact be possible... in a few years. ;-)


Yeah, either we create a war with them, or with some luck there is a revolution and the government is overthrown by the younger and wiser generation.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

#21159 by Craig Maxim
Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:17 am
da skunk wrote:
if you want to protect our interests do what brazil did. make us independent of the middle east and there oil.....


Damn, I had to get a metal detector to comb through that post, but gee, that nugget alone was worth it. Great point. And why has it taken so long to do that? Because cheap oil means more profit in the short term, even at the long term expense of being mired in what we are now.

And who are some of the people to blame for that...

da skunk wrote:
so yee haw to good ole oil loving and oil producing bush fuc!@$$% family.


And it was probably most of your neighbors, if not you yourself, who voted for the likes of Bush JR in the first place.

Who, in their right f**k'ing mind, heard him speak in debates, and answer... excuse that...."NOT" be able to answer journalist's basic questions about world leaders he would be dealing with and simple geography, and still voted for him?

I was so mad that daddy Bush's cronies STOLE the nomination from McCain that I penciled McCain in as a protest vote.

Why did I like McCain? Because McCain had a platform of taking on special interests, which, if successful, may have helped us avoid some of the sh*t we're going through right now!

McCain also, at the time, wanted to strip demented idiots like Pat Robertson of having so much influence in the Republican party. Ever since the "Moral" Majority made politics a religious sacrament, the religious right has had a stranglehold on the Republican party that is, quite frankly, embarrassing.

So, McCain, even now, is hated by the fundi's in the Republican party, which in itself, is meritorious, and makes him cool in my book! ;-)

#21160 by da skunk
Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:23 am
captain scott.. Regardless of what others might think. we musicians do have opinions and obviously we really like to debate ...music is an entire pakage. I'm loving this ...amen for the musicians with the ability to think and speak..
Love yall.... it's hell trying to have this type of forum in a town that is radically predjudice.. alabama the whites hate the blacks and the balcks hate the whites and somewhere they all hate us hispanics...... so again thank you for the mind blasts i miss them. and really apreciate that it's other musicians........ I have no hate fotr anyone here.

#21161 by Craig Maxim
Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:27 am
da skunk wrote:captain scott.. Regardless of what others might think. we musicians do have opinions and obviously we really like to debate ...music is an entire pakage. I'm loving this ...amen for the musicians with the ability to think and speak..
Love yall.... it's hell trying to have this type of forum in a town that is radically predjudice.. alabama the whites hate the blacks and the balcks hate the whites and somewhere they all hate us hispanics...... so again thank you for the mind blasts i miss them. and really apreciate that it's other musicians........ I have no hate fotr anyone here.


Backatcha Skunk!

And hey, I used to live in Mobile for a brief time (Gulf Shores Too) so trust me when I say "I feel ya!" LOL

#21170 by Irminsul
Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:24 am
Craig wrote:We keep a well maintained military and all the advanced technological weapons that go with it, just for "Maybe". Responsible adults (not me) keep a sizeable portion of their income in savings, in addition to retirement plans, for "Maybe". People have catastrophic life insurance policies for "Maybe". Many artists who dream of making it big, also get college educations for "Maybe".

New Orleans is what happens when "Maybe" isn't taken seriously enough. Which, after all, is your argument. "Why worry about maybe?" Survival often depends on maybe. That's why. But lulled into a false sense of confidence, which you are portraying here, is exactly why things like 9-11 were possible.

And once again, let me repeat, that EXPERTS don't believe a nuclear weapon being detonated in America is a "Maybe". They are convinced it "WILL" occur.


Radical islamists, DESERVE such a brush. Rather than wanting a supreme "race" however, their vision is a supreme "religion". It is no less intolerant, and no less dangerous than Hitler. Remember, Hitler at one time was a wannabe painter. Had he been accepted at art school, rather than rejected, we may very well not be having this conversation right now. He was a nobody at one time. But he was a charismatic, hate-filled nobody. He rose in power to become somebody, and the world paid the price for it.

Shame on you Irmy. You are far too knowledgeable about history to be that naive of it's lessons. What's that saying? "Those who refuse to remember the past are condemned to repeat it"


OK you're talking about insurance policies. How interesting - that's exactly what the Iranians want, with a nuclear defense! Think about it. They are the ones being aggressed upon by Washington continually, doesn't it make total sense that they want the best deterrent possible? It sure does to me. They have a right, as a sovereign people, to determine the nature of their own defense - just like any other nation in the world does.

Don't confuse my disagreement with your shallow, fear-filled notion of the world around you with naivete. The old saying certainly says that those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it. But let me add my own: Those who MISREMEMBER history are doomed, period.

Craig wrote:Yes, that is often the case. I have had quite a few Muslim friends and we discussed theological issues, which were debated with respect. One of my best friends like that, had a wife and tons of kids, and I believe that if I ever needed something, he might provide it to me, before even some of my own family would. However, I have also been with him, when the Arab news came on, and told them that the Jews knew about 9-11 but didn't tell the American government, with the proof being that NO Jews died in the Twin Towers. Apparently, Jews all know when things are going down, and share that news, and called out sick that day. Ridiculous isn't it? My friend is actually quite intelligent. But he believed it, at first, because it is a cultural phenomenon. They hate Israel. They WANT to believe, even the most absurd statements, like the one going out on Arab television. That kind of hatred, even among normally peace loving individuals, like my friend, can work even the tamest of people into a frenzy, with chaos potentially resulting.


People believe all sorts of strange things. But in order to deconstruct them you need to be wiser about the situation than they are. And that is always a debatable position. Yes, much of the Arab world hates Israel. Seems crazy huh? But when you are a Palestinian family who had their home and land stolen, their family members killed and no hope of a state on the horizon, its amazing what negative things one can be led to believe about Israel. This goes to a whole different topic, but I'm sure you get my drift. When people are wounded, when they are damaged, they have certain reasons for the beliefs they carry. You have never had men with guns and rockets steal everything you knew and loved, Craig. And neither have I. That means we are hardly ones to judge the emotion of the Arabs.

Craig wrote:And to disprove your "feel-good" attitude towards Muslims, regarding lulling us into a false sense of security... Do you really believe that people of German ancestry are natural-born racists and murderers? Hitler was not alone. An ENTIRE NATION OF PEOPLE helped him accomplish his evil ends. They WERE ALL, to varying degrees, aware of what was going on. But Hitler had successfully worked them into a frenzy, believing that ALL of Germany's economic problems were due to Jews. That is an example of what is possible when, normally well intentioned people, buy into a culture of hatred, that turns them into something else. In the midst of such evil, there were courageous souls that helped the Jews, but this was the exception, and not the rule. Children turned their parents in to the S.S. for God's sake. They were more loyal to a single personality, than their entire family or conscience.

You are probably familiar with it, but for others reading, to see how culture, peer pressure and situational morality affect quite normal people in frightening ways. See what they are capable of, by looking up the "Milgram Experiment".



Yes I know what Milgram was, but this has just careened over the edge of reason into hysteria, Craig...as well as having failed the analogy test. National Socialism in Germany was racially based. Islam is not. NS had a charismatic spokesman that swayed nearly an entire nation. Islam does not (no, BinLaden doesn't even come close to counting). There is no real world connection at all to Musim people and the Germans under Hitler. None. It is imagined, out of fear.

Craig wrote:Bullshit.

Of course they want to be left alone. They also have, as state policy, the goal of destroying Israel as a nation. Not to mention teaching their children from the earliest age, that killing Americans is laudable, and even righteous. We are not talking about a single nutcase somewhere, or a small skinhead group. We are talking an entire culture of a nation. A nation that has a strong military, and seeks a nuclear arsenal. You cannot possibly be naive enough to believe that merely leaving them alone, will solve hundreds of years of hatred and murderous intent.

Hitler wanted to be left alone too. And to our shame, we did just that... for a while.

Look Irminsul, and Anthony too...

America is not as good as many Americans would like to believe, but neither are we as evil as some of the world would like to believe.

History is replete with individuals and nations that seek to control the destiny of the world for their own ends, and will murder countless innocents on the way to accomplishing it. It is always only a matter of time, before the next one, gets closer to his goals, or at least wreaks havoc on a worlwide scale in pursuit of them.



No, Iran does not have the goal of destroying Israel. Ahmadinejad has made lots of anti-Israel statements, but he has also been purposely mistranslated, as has Ayatollah Khomeini and I could get into the specifics of those if you like. You are also conveniently forgetting, again, that it has been AMERICA who has aggressed on Iran time and time again, not the other way. If they are wary of us now, and our government, no sane person could blame them.

To summarize, Iran is not even close to the threat that Germany was in the 1930s. Those who believe so have been whipped into a fearful hysteria from decades of conditioning in our schools and media with misinformation and outright lies. George Bush and his evil cabal tried that crap with saddam and Iraq..and we all saw where THAT went.

It is a slap in the face, a disgrace, visited upon those who fought and died to defeat fascism in the REAL world (not the pretend one of maybe and could be) to make a connection today to a small nation that never did us wrong, only wanted our friendship and all we gave them in return was constant interference and damage.

This is just wrong. It's time for the US to take a step back and reevaluate the whole Monroe Doctrine Manifest Destiny thing. It's outdated, and in today's terms, just plain immoral. You see, freedom is great. But it's not only for us. We have to accept it as an aspiration for all the world's peoples - whether we agree with their rhetoric or not.

UPDATE - This just in, in case anyone still labors under the notion that we can tell who whether or not they can have nukes or not...

Nuclear Proliferation Now Out of Control

A former American CIA agent and nuclear expert David Dastych has claimed that main nuclear arsenals of Pakistan, India, Britain, France, the USA, Russia and China are safe but nuclear proliferation could not be
controlled now because it has completely slipped out of control.

http://oraclesyndicate.twoday.net/stories/4677486/



There. Now everybody, sleep tight.

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