General Music Chat

Karl Marx was above all an idealist, and the graveyards of the world are filled with evidence of Marxist idealism gone horribly wrong. There has never been a pure Marxist government and it can never really exist as long as humans are involved. Why doesn't Marxism work in the real world?

George Orwell gives us some really big clues:

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm/index.html

If you are currently thinking a Marxist solution might be the answer to our problems, this is worth a re-read... and it's free. What could be better than that.

I won't argue against Marxist influenced governments being a failure.
But, I think Marx still made many relevant and accurate points in his assessment of capitalism.
His diagnosis was correct.
His prescription was, unfortunately, not.

That was precisely my point, thanks for the eloquent summary Mike.

Im a capitlist, Ive started and run business's since I was 23 years old.

One of them didnt go bankrupt, but if I had tryed to keep it running, it would have, so I had to make the decision of shutting it down, liquidating assetts, helping employees get new jobs. There wasnt any sort of bailout available for me.

Another business which I will share is a propane buisness. 2011 we lost money, mainly because of the weather, what did I do? My partner and I sat down last Jan and made a plan to cut spending, some huge cuts, for 2012 we rebounded.

Another business Im involved in is a cotton gin. Currently grain prices on the world market make more sense to area farmers to raise. Cotton production will be cut dramatically this year, how much? We dont really know yet, but we are preparing for it. We will weather the coming year, and try to be in business in 2013, we feel the market will change and swing ag back more cotton friendly.

I guess having gone thru the things I have, my view of government is tainted. Take the GM situation, instead of bailing it out, my thought was let the company be shrunk to a size that it could sustain itself, the same for wall street. Let the unprofitable business's fail.

Harsh I know, but Ive personally been thru the process a couple of times, and in the end things have worked out, Im not homeless, maybe i make less, but Ive been able to survive.

Our government seems to think there is an unlimited amount of money they can tap into when things go wrong. To me the true road to recovery in the world market today is streamlining, cutting cost, being more efficient. Not adding more taxes.

I guess Im rambling about my situation, which I know is way different from a lot of people on the forum, but I just wish that the government could be more accountable for spending my money. My personal pay check is smaller this year, so what do I do? I make adjustments and do the best I can.

The government should have bailed out the people and let the banks fail, which is the opposite of what they did.
The message here is,
"Capitalism is good for you LITTLE PEOPLE. The discipline of the market. But, WE need SOCIALISM for the extremely wealthy. WE cannot afford to fail."

Mike I have no idea where you are coming from, sorry you dont make any sense to me.

I understand that in Wall Streets situation, letting some of those guys fail would hurt the little people with some money in retirement accounts. Not the super wealthy, Im not too concerned about super wealthy people.

GM, also, if what I think should have happened had happened a huge amount of people would have been out of jobs. Little people that go to work every day, and go about thier business.

Like I said you have a totally different point of view on things than I do. Ive worked and dealt with whatever has been sent my way, business wise and will continue to do that and do the best I can with it.

I just dont understand why government cant get a handle on thier business. In the same way you and I do with our personal lives, I only spend what I make, I dont overextend myself, and I have probably as good of credit as anyone youve ever met, could borrow to get anything that I wanted within reason, its just our government, doesnt do this, they are spending money today that they really dont have.

Cuts in the government will hurt all of us, we all mention greed, I guess we are all too greedy to give up anything to make the overall picture better, thats it in a nutshell, lets fix it if it wont hurt me.

Im a capitlist, Ive started and run business's since I was 23 years old.

One of them didnt go bankrupt, but if I had tryed to keep it running, it would have, so I had to make the decision of shutting it down, liquidating assetts, helping employees get new jobs. There wasnt any sort of bailout available for me.

Another business which I will share is a propane buisness. 2011 we lost money, mainly because of the weather, what did I do? My partner and I sat down last Jan and made a plan to cut spending, some huge cuts, for 2012 we rebounded.

Another business Im involved in is a cotton gin. Currently grain prices on the world market make more sense to area farmers to raise. Cotton production will be cut dramatically this year, how much? We dont really know yet, but we are preparing for it. We will weather the coming year, and try to be in business in 2013, we feel the market will change and swing ag back more cotton friendly.

I guess having gone thru the things I have, my view of government is tainted. Take the GM situation, instead of bailing it out, my thought was let the company be shrunk to a size that it could sustain itself, the same for wall street. Let the unprofitable business's fail.

Harsh I know, but Ive personally been thru the process a couple of times, and in the end things have worked out, Im not homeless, maybe i make less, but Ive been able to survive.

Our government seems to think there is an unlimited amount of money they can tap into when things go wrong. To me the true road to recovery in the world market today is streamlining, cutting cost, being more efficient. Not adding more taxes.

I guess Im rambling about my situation, which I know is way different from a lot of people on the forum, but I just wish that the government could be more accountable for spending my money. My personal pay check is smaller this year, so what do I do? I make adjustments and do the best I can.

We have walked many of the same paths John and come to many of the same conclusions. My small business is as nearly recession-proof as any but 2011 was tough. We had a lot of deferred maintenance expenses that came due at the same time sales were at an all time low. I slashed expenses for 2012 and things are looking better. I still make a lot less than I did during the boom years but I can keep my personal expenses low as well. We drive old cars and give generously to those less fortunate than us.

I am not extraordinarily bright or talented and my business is far below the radar. We simply do work that others don't want to do and that keeps food on the table year after year.

We all have choices.

Im a capitlist, Ive started and run business's since I was 23 years old.

One of them didnt go bankrupt, but if I had tryed to keep it running, it would have, so I had to make the decision of shutting it down, liquidating assetts, helping employees get new jobs. There wasnt any sort of bailout available for me.

Another business which I will share is a propane buisness. 2011 we lost money, mainly because of the weather, what did I do? My partner and I sat down last Jan and made a plan to cut spending, some huge cuts, for 2012 we rebounded.

Another business Im involved in is a cotton gin. Currently grain prices on the world market make more sense to area farmers to raise. Cotton production will be cut dramatically this year, how much? We dont really know yet, but we are preparing for it. We will weather the coming year, and try to be in business in 2013, we feel the market will change and swing ag back more cotton friendly.

I guess having gone thru the things I have, my view of government is tainted. Take the GM situation, instead of bailing it out, my thought was let the company be shrunk to a size that it could sustain itself, the same for wall street. Let the unprofitable business's fail.

Harsh I know, but Ive personally been thru the process a couple of times, and in the end things have worked out, Im not homeless, maybe i make less, but Ive been able to survive.

Our government seems to think there is an unlimited amount of money they can tap into when things go wrong. To me the true road to recovery in the world market today is streamlining, cutting cost, being more efficient. Not adding more taxes.

I guess Im rambling about my situation, which I know is way different from a lot of people on the forum, but I just wish that the government could be more accountable for spending my money. My personal pay check is smaller this year, so what do I do? I make adjustments and do the best I can.

John, I believe any form of government can be bad including our own, BUT it is better than the alternative! I'll pick capitalism with its problems over socialism ANY day!

Really? Greed rules? How about this

(ESV) "'And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.'

Who among you was dissatisfied with what they had until someone told them they should have what their neighbor has? Who among you were dissatisfied until you snooped into your neighbors possessions and took stock of what he had and compared it to what you have?

Which of you go through life working to get ahead and better yourself with the opportunities that we have in America? No one is holding you back. Millions have done it on their own.

God blesses both the Godly and the ungodly. Who has the authority to oppose what God has given to another?

It is foolish to oppose the righteousness of a living God. Get off your ass and earn your own fortune. America has given you that right. Do not spend your time trying to steal what another has earned through hard work and perseverance.

I don't buy the whole no hope of pulling themselves out of it. I ain't the sharpest pencil in the box but I am HONEST! Honestly I use to have the same thought process as you Kramer. During the first 40 years of my life I blamed "the man" for my lack of success! That SOB gave me 21% interest loans, based my insurance bill on my credit rating instead of my driving record. Damn that SOB was keeping me down. I just couldn't get out of poverty and it was EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT! Then during an act of desperation the only way I could find any work during the recession of the 80's was to move to California of which both my sisters families did, or take the last $50.00 I had and advertise in the local papers. I was working the next day! After being in business for myself I saw the U.S. economy from a completely different perspective. Through that ad I found people willing to give me a chance and I worked night and day 2 jobs, plus music! That Mr. Kramer is why I view things from a very specific point of view. You see I pulled myself out of poverty.
There is a very fine undefinable line between under regulation and over regulation! If life hasn't taught me anything it has damn sure taught me that! Kramer I am done with the name calling until someone else starts it then its on brother! I am simply trying to understand the Hatred yourself and others on here have toward our economic system. I believe the President has founded the very basis of his adminstration on catering to the agenda of redistribution of wealth empowered by folks frustrated by that point of view!

Jeff, I see your points. I do have a response, but in the spirit of keeping things simple and short as possible, it's near impossible to explain all of my thoughts and insights without it turning into a book. People have written books on this.. so I will try my best to keep it simplified here.

I'm not sure I hate the economic system, as much as I hate the current status of the system. It's not working properly. I do think capitalism is a bad idea, and that it's ultimately going to fail, and fail big.

My reasons why are simple. Capitalism requires growth in order to succeed. Even to maintain. There is no "maintain" in capitalism, growth is a necessity, absolute. There's only so many resources available, and as we grow, the demand increases while the availability goes down. This will ultimately lead to a winner-has-all endgame. We could argue WHEN that would happen, but the math is pretty simple.. keep growing the population and eventually there will not be enough food and other necessities to support everyone. Since capitalism requires growth to survive, it's ultimately flawed and will fail. If nothing else, this should be among the top concerns and debates in the world, not just our country. We need to figure out how to sustain mankind for the long run. Human society has a disturbing lack of vision in this area. I'd love to see debate on this alone.

I'm swaying the discussion a bit, but I don't have time to point out how your situation is different than other people's, not everyone has the opportunity to better their situation, and there's numerous examples of that (might get into that later)

I don't buy the whole no hope of pulling themselves out of it. I ain't the sharpest pencil in the box but I am HONEST! Honestly I use to have the same thought process as you Kramer. During the first 40 years of my life I blamed "the man" for my lack of success! That SOB gave me 21% interest loans, based my insurance bill on my credit rating instead of my driving record. Damn that SOB was keeping me down. I just couldn't get out of poverty and it was EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT! Then during an act of desperation the only way I could find any work during the recession of the 80's was to move to California of which both my sisters families did, or take the last $50.00 I had and advertise in the local papers. I was working the next day! After being in business for myself I saw the U.S. economy from a completely different perspective. Through that ad I found people willing to give me a chance and I worked night and day 2 jobs, plus music! That Mr. Kramer is why I view things from a very specific point of view. You see I pulled myself out of poverty.
There is a very fine undefinable line between under regulation and over regulation! If life hasn't taught me anything it has damn sure taught me that! Kramer I am done with the name calling until someone else starts it then its on brother! I am simply trying to understand the Hatred yourself and others on here have toward our economic system. I believe the President has founded the very basis of his adminstration on catering to the agenda of redistribution of wealth empowered by folks frustrated by that point of view!

Jeff, I see your points. I do have a response, but in the spirit of keeping things simple and short as possible, it's near impossible to explain all of my thoughts and insights without it turning into a book. People have written books on this.. so I will try my best to keep it simplified here.

I'm not sure I hate the economic system, as much as I hate the current status of the system. It's not working properly. I do think capitalism is a bad idea, and that it's ultimately going to fail, and fail big.

My reasons why are simple. Capitalism requires growth in order to succeed. Even to maintain. There is no "maintain" in capitalism, growth is a necessity, absolute. There's only so many resources available, and as we grow, the demand increases while the availability goes down. This will ultimately lead to a winner-has-all endgame. We could argue WHEN that would happen, but the math is pretty simple.. keep growing the population and eventually there will not be enough food and other necessities to support everyone. Since capitalism requires growth to survive, it's ultimately flawed and will fail. If nothing else, this should be among the top concerns and debates in the world, not just our country. We need to figure out how to sustain mankind for the long run. Human society has a disturbing lack of vision in this area. I'd love to see debate on this alone.

I'm swaying the discussion a bit, but I don't have time to point out how your situation is different than other people's, not everyone has the opportunity to better their situation, and there's numerous examples of that (might get into that later)

Kramer, the flaw in capitalism IMO is when the people of the Republic decide they want to change the rules (constitution) and give themselves something they DID NOT EARN! I know we aren't going to change the world with these discussions but at least we can learn something from one another through a friendly debate?

Kramer, the flaw in capitalism IMO is when the people of the Republic decide they want to change the rules (constitution) and give themselves something they DID NOT EARN! I know we aren't going to change the world with these discussions but at least we can learn something from one another through a friendly debate?

Of course we can, why else would I be discussing it? Let's start with my reasoning for capitalism failing (growth).. do you think that's incorrect? Why? How can anyone not come to the same conclusions about over-growth?

Kramer, the flaw in capitalism IMO is when the people of the Republic decide they want to change the rules (constitution) and give themselves something they DID NOT EARN! I know we aren't going to change the world with these discussions but at least we can learn something from one another through a friendly debate?

Of course we can, why else would I be discussing it? Let's start with my reasoning for capitalism failing (growth).. do you think that's incorrect? Why? How can anyone not come to the same conclusions about over-growth?

I believe the growth is necessary true but like anything else there should be balance. The problem IMO is this country is out of balance and I think everyone would agree on that. We are so out of balance with government wanting MORE control of our lives all while playing class warfare to pit us against one another. We all argue like hell back and forth all while the government STEALS our freedoms right out from under us. Everyone is TAKING what ever they can. This country is so divided virtually anyone that can is SNEAKING into this country exploiting the finacial resources and throwing it even further out of balance. IMO balance is necessary to happiness in life, it is also necessary to a budget. On one hand you have politicians STEALING money and using it to get votes, on the other hand you have them using it to enrich themselves and their friends all while prapaganda style news sources push their political beliefs over journalism and facts. Until we as Americans grow a pair wise up and do something about it, it will never change. In fact I pray folks wise up but I fear we are to divided!

Kramer, the flaw in capitalism IMO is when the people of the Republic decide they want to change the rules (constitution) and give themselves something they DID NOT EARN! I know we aren't going to change the world with these discussions but at least we can learn something from one another through a friendly debate?

Of course we can, why else would I be discussing it? Let's start with my reasoning for capitalism failing (growth).. do you think that's incorrect? Why? How can anyone not come to the same conclusions about over-growth?

I believe the growth is necessary true but like anything else there should be balance. The problem IMO is this country is out of balance and I think everyone would agree on that. We are so out of balance with government wanting MORE control of our lives all while playing class warfare to pit us against one another. We all argue like hell back and forth all while the government STEALS our freedoms right out from under us. Everyone is TAKING what ever they can. This country is so divided virtually anyone that can is SNEAKING into this country exploiting the finacial resources and throwing it even further out of balance. IMO balance is necessary to happiness in life, it is also necessary to a budget. On one hand you have politicians STEALING money and using it to get votes, on the other hand you have them using it to enrich themselves and their friends all while prapaganda style news sources push their political beliefs over journalism and facts. Until we as Americans grow a pair wise up and do something about it, it will never change. In fact I pray folks wise up but I fear we are to divided!

Thanks for the answer, it's a good answer, and I'm inclined to agree with most of it.

I would like to expand on it- I do agree that there's no balance, and also that everyone is enriching themselves and tipping that balance, politicians especially. I would like to think they are separate from government though. I know they are PART of the government, but one day they shall be gone, and the government will still exist.

I cannot let go of my public-school teachings, about the government being by The People, for The People. Once The People can get a handle on government, I think it could, and should, be a powerful tool of the people, not the 1%.

As far as those who take too much and balance, how do you feel that a few wealthy oil men get to have all the profits from the country's natural resources? How about Natural gas, water, coal, copper, ore? This is OUR country, so why don't WE (The People), gain anything from it. In fact, we are enslaved to gas prices, and all of the other stuff. Rather than prosper from these resources, We The People are beholden to the 1% who exploit these resources.

I apologize for using the 1% terminology, but I cannot seem to find a better way to describe that group of people.

So what are your thoughts on 'we the people' and national resources?

Kramer, I don't believe that wealthy oilmen get to keep "all the profit" that is where you and I differ in opinion. I believe a corp. like Royal Dutch Shell or Exxon have a duty to their shareholders and that is their main motivation but they do generate LOTS of jobs, tax revenue's and opportunities for people to that end! IMO there is nothing wrong with that. Companies should be allowed to prosper that is REALLY the motivation. I agree there should be regulation on corp. that are providing products so dangerously obtained but then again there should be BALANCE! I believe that a 2 or 3 party system is necessary for balance. There should be at least 2 points of view debating over issue's regarding congressional oversite. The problem IMO is on one side you have corp. trying to influence that oversite and on the other the liberal media. IMO right now the balance is tipped to the liberal side with NO opposing opinions because the american public is so frustrated over past legislation.

Why do people rage against those who have money? Simply GREED and Covertness. You look to see what someone else gets paid and then you look at your check. The greed mongers never look at expenses, or how long it took to grow a big corp, or any of the details.

So what if someone is making a lot of money? This government steals more from you in taxes than the oil companies ever make.

What do you care what an oil company makes anyway? Are you some kind of income policeman. No one cared for years until the bastard BO started his divide and conquer class warfare.

And while you pis$ an moan about how much more someone else makes your liberty and your rights are stripped away in front of your eyes by a fascist regime But you don't see that, you are too busy with his greed and discontent agenda.

The government is the thief, not private enterprise.

Why do people rage against those who have money?

Simply GREED and Covertness. You look to see what someone else gets paid and then you look at your check. The greed mongers never look at expenses, or how long it took to grow a big corp, or any of the details.

It's not that simple Slacker,
My only desires in life are to be able to do fair work and make a meager living, without having to struggle check to check. I care not who has more than myself. My concerns about wealth, especially with big oil, are simply that CEO's and executives make a killing at the expense of the people. Are they not still subsidized by the government (aka The People)? Are they not also making billions a year in profits? We're they not successful only by the good graces of The People to help them build that vast empire?

So what if someone is making a lot of money? This government steals more from you in taxes than the oil companies ever make.

We have historically low taxes in this country, and much lower than almost any other country on the planet, how is that theft? Of course I don't agree with how they spend it.. never will anyone unanimously agree on spending on any level.

What do you care what an oil company makes anyway? Are you some kind of income policeman. No one cared for years until the bastard BO started his divide and conquer class warfare.

I care a lot when my taxes continue to help support them.

Class warfare is a very real thing- real as racism and discrimination.. in fact it's very well intermixed with discrimination. The People are what made this country great, built it with their bare hands, yet when the rich wall street banksters steal and pillage america, We The People, whose taxes help build everything, are told to 'bail them out' and then to suffer austerity for their crimes, while they give themselves lush bonuses and buyout other firms with their new money, becoming monopolies. I could cite specific issues with almost every major industry. Even big oil is guilty of monopolistic crimes. There's a reason we had laws against that, and we will continue to suffer for the deregulations that took place over the last 25 years.

And while you pis$ an moan about how much more someone else makes your liberty and your rights are stripped away in front of your eyes by a fascist regime But you don't see that, you are too busy with his greed and discontent agenda.

I would gladly go back to the exact same tax codes and regulations we had in 1980. I don't hate america, I don't hate wealth- it's really that simple. I love what this country WAS, and what it is now makes me sick.

The government is the thief, not private enterprise.

The government is We The People. It's been hijacked, we all can agree on that, but in of itself, government is necessary and exists to serve the people. The solution isn't to kill it, but to "correct" it. It's sick, let's find a cure, not put a bullet in it's head.

Kramer, I don't believe that wealthy oilmen get to keep "all the profit" that is where you and I differ in opinion. I believe a corp. like Royal Dutch Shell or Exxon have a duty to their shareholders and that is their main motivation but they do generate LOTS of jobs, tax revenue's and opportunities for people to that end! IMO there is nothing wrong with that. Companies should be allowed to prosper that is REALLY the motivation. I agree there should be regulation on corp. that are providing products so dangerously obtained but then again there should be BALANCE! I believe that a 2 or 3 party system is necessary for balance. There should be at least 2 points of view debating over issue's regarding congressional oversite. The problem IMO is on one side you have corp. trying to influence that oversite and on the other the liberal media. IMO right now the balance is tipped to the liberal side with NO opposing opinions because the american public is so frustrated over past legislation.

Companies shouldn't be allowed to prosper on national resources at the expense of the people. These resources belong to all of us, not just a bunch of bigwigs and stockbrokers. Hate to say it, but Hugo Chavez had it right when he told big oil, "you pay the people for their resources, or GTFO". I applaud him for that.