General Music Chat

This is capitalism?
"Economic system in which most of the means of production are privately owned, and production is guided and income distributed largely through the operation of markets. "

Exactly!

With Native American tribes substitute:
Means= tools
Production= hunt, gather, build homes, craft tools and clothing
Operation of markets= barter

Yep they were clearly capitalists on a small scale but capitalism for sure with private ownership. Hunting and gathering is clearly a team sport and just as in a car dealership, the income is distributed throughout all participants in the company even though only the salespeople actually make the "kills". Same game different setting.

Note: Native Americans also had an average life span of around 25years.

You are totally reaching here.
A tribal community has no equivalence to a car dealership.
None.
The chiefs were NOT CEOs.
The rest of the tribe were NOT "employees".
What would being fired be like?
Execution?

someone kills a wild boar and makes a necklace to wear from the teeth of the animal is hardly a fair or accurate description of capitalism. Several ism's allow for personal properties, some more than others, but even chinese folks have property, make jewelry to sell at the markets, etc.

Nationalism, socialism, both allow for private ownerships.

Keep in mind, all these ism's, including capitalism, are ideas and ideals. They are a creation of mankind, and are distinguished as much my their differences from one another as their effects on person and 'property'.

I would venture that the 'best' system for you is different than the best system for me, and both are different than the best system for him. Using third party references here, but what the hell, right?

So we end up asking "what is the best system for everone?" I think this is how we came to the "every man for himself" system in theory, but who knows?

What do I think? I think the best system takes from all the current systems, takes the good and leaves the bad behind, but I wholly agree with Mike that the system needs to be more communal. For instance- if this land is 'for the people, by the people', then why are a select few allowed to claim a piece of the land, suck out oil or nat. gas, etc.. and profit obscenely from it, and not have to give the people their fair share of the take, considering it came from "our" land? This is tenfold true when that same raw material is gathered from public owned lands.

There's dozens of industries that are wholly enabled, sometimes funded, and often coddled by "the people", but then those same companies once successful, do everything in their power to NOT pay "the people" back, how is this style of "winner take all" good for anyone but the winner?

I'm more forgiving of companies like microsoft, Intel, for innovating and creating, but how many of them got to do that because of government funded ("the people" funded) research into computer technology in the 50'sa nd 60's? Truth be told, they all were able to hit the ground running because of the people enabling them. FedEx and UPS drive down roads "the people" built.

Why no sense of loyalty to "the people"?

This is capitalism?
"Economic system in which most of the means of production are privately owned, and production is guided and income distributed largely through the operation of markets. "

Exactly!

With Native American tribes substitute:
Means= tools
Production= hunt, gather, build homes, craft tools and clothing
Operation of markets= barter

Yep they were clearly capitalists on a small scale but capitalism for sure with private ownership. Hunting and gathering is clearly a team sport and just as in a car dealership, the income is distributed throughout all participants in the company even though only the salespeople actually make the "kills". Same game different setting.

Note: Native Americans also had an average life span of around 25years.

You are totally reaching here.
A tribal community has no equivalence to a car dealership.
None.
The chiefs were NOT CEOs.
The rest of the tribe were NOT "employees".
What would being fired be like?
Execution?

See definition above Mike. Capitalism does not require employees or CEOs. Members of a tribe were part of a team and worked together for common goals with different levels,jobs, and a chain of command very much like a car dealership. Being "fired" from a tribe happened on a regular basis and it meant banishment from the tribe. Probably far more terminal than being fired from a job today. You can dismiss the analogy if it makes you uncomfortable but it is a pretty accurate parallel.

Today's methods are far more organized and clearly defined as far as we can tell, but the similarities are clear. Native Americans exercised choices just like we do and some tribes thrived and some did not. Many froze or starved to death over the winter due to lack of preparation. It was a pretty short and brutal life for many.

We tend to fear what we do not understand.

Star Trek economy is Marxist.

So the answer is Marxism.
Bitches.

Unless you're on the "winning" end - then it's capitalism.

If the matrix was true, what would you choose ?
As of right now, I'd choose the steaks, money, power, and women - go back to my pod.

if this land is 'for the people, by the people', then why are a select few allowed to claim a piece of the land, suck out oil or nat. gas, etc.. and profit obscenely from it, and not have to give the people their fair share of the take, considering it came from "our" land? This is tenfold true when that same raw material is gathered from public owned lands.

I see, comrade, that you have completed your re-education classes. Chairman Mao would be proud!



1. There is no such thing as a "select few allowed" to do any kind of business in Capitalism. You have it confused with Marxism apparently. No one is stopping YOU from being that person. If you are going to risk your capital, plus the time and money it takes to get resources out of the ground and into a gas tank, don't you think you should have a reward that reflects that risk? Along the way you'll have to hire people to do the work. In a free market, there is competition for that job which will keep labor prices low...but you get what you pay for. If you want the best people, you'll have to pay what they're asking (as opposed to getting mediocre people at an artificially set government wage)

2. "The people" benefit from you having to compete with Joe Schmo for the best price per gallon. "The people" get unseen savings from market competition, as opposed to government regulated and artificial price controls.
(not to mention taxes on top of it). And the people get jobs from you and the gas station and the refineries and the whole process of bringing your product to market.

3. Public owned lands are simply places that the government has claimed so they can control the resources. Do you honestly think they do that more efficiently than an individual (or partnership of private individuals) who want to make obscene profits from it?




There is no scenario whatsoever where communes or socialism is better than capitalism, unless you're lazy and want someone else to be responsible for your life.

Marxism sounds great on paper, but it's the difference between a Trebbie (Trabant 601) given to you by the government after 10 years of exemplary service.....or getting a Corvette because YOU earned the money to buy it. Human nature is why it doesn't really work. Who wants to work hard if you're guaranteed a living anyway? It makes people lazy, uncreative, and unmotivated. The only equality achieved is in shared misery.

Obviously, you've never spent any time in a communist country. I've been in many and those folks know better. Communism has failed in every place it is tried. It's unconscionable that we would even whisper it here.










.

Yod,


Good words. Unfortunately they are wasted on the brain dead socialists (future brown shirts) dwelling amongst us.

Capitalism is fine as long as strict controls are in place, from Wall Street to Main Street. End all subsidies, especially to big oil. Tax the rich at the highest rate allowed. Prevent companies from using cheap overseas labor. These things will help correct the problems.

Capitalism is fine as long as strict controls are in place, from Wall Street to Main Street. End all subsidies, especially to big oil. Tax the rich at the highest rate allowed. Prevent companies from using cheap overseas labor. These things will help correct the problems.

What needs to be "controlled"?

I believe that government involvement is ALWAYS the problem. Obama talks smack about some corporations not paying their "fair share" while being supported and bankrolled by GE who pays ZERO taxes...and gets billions in "stimulus" payments.

His entire cabinet is Wall Street and yet you guys really believe he's looking out for the little guy. He, like all dictators, has learned how to manipulate your envy. His followers are marching blindly to help the richest of the rich.

I mean, c'mon, George Soros???

And I don't think its "fair" to charge anyone a higher or lower rate of taxes. If EVERYONE is paying the same rate, then it's fair. I'd rather see a flat rate consumption tax.

And cheap foreign labor is the result of unions artificially raising the price of labor...and government (again) raising taxes causes people to leave for a better climate. Those idiots haven't yet figured out that people don't just bend over and grab their knees voluntarily. States like Maryland raises taxes...and their tax-base moves out of the state.

But our biggest (external) problem is China and no one wants to stand up to them because Chinese money is flowing in DC

But instead of leadership attacking these problems, we're given a side-show distraction to take away Constitutional (God-given inalienable) rights.

I wish some of you could remember the reason why we have a Declaration of Independence.

I REMEMBER!!!!!

This isn't a capitalist country anymore. It's a socialist country.
Has been for awhile.

Yep Exactly. This idea that wealth should be spread around... Our Country is fkd up now... But when you think about it, its still better than all the other fkd up countries...
Hell...we even do socialism better than anyone else in the whole world.

The idea that you could "ban money" is pretty silly. Money was invented as a way to make bartering easier. I have corn, you have beans. Do I need to take my corn to a market and then negotiate how much beans I can get for it? That works on very small scales, not on scales of economy like we have now. The notion of a "Star Trek" system where all people's needs are met without the use of money is a long way off, if it ever happens at all.

The idea that you could "ban money" is pretty silly. Money was invented as a way to make bartering easier. I have corn, you have beans. Do I need to take my corn to a market and then negotiate how much beans I can get for it? That works on very small scales, not on scales of economy like we have now. The notion of a "Star Trek" system where all people's needs are met without the use of money is a long way off, if it ever happens at all.

In order to get to that point, I think free energy is required.