General Music Chat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y43a6BsN ... e=youtu.be

This is a 10 minute video. If you can please watch. Especially for MikeNobody!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y43a6BsNQb4&feature=youtu.be

This is a 10 minute video. If you can please watch. Especially for MikeNobody!

I've already seen that video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y43a6BsNQb4&feature=youtu.be

This is a 10 minute video. If you can please watch. Especially for MikeNobody!

I've already seen that video.

Then what is your idea of a good form of government? It seems to me that greed is a natural human emotion and because of that all humans are subject to it in some capacity. That being said ANY form of government is going to be BAD for the majority of its citizens! IMO at least the american way (the way that built this country) which we americans today seem to have forgotten WAS best! The Chinese and other emerging economies are capitilizing on it. Of course it is a cruel world regardless of any form of govrnment and unfortunately some folks are going to get left behind, forgotten, swept under the rug! IMO at least with a free market you have the opportunity to advance and do well. IMO the ones that get left behind in a free market society are the ones that don't want to take the iniative to get up off their BUTT and make things happen. Their are in this free market some that need help. The problem is the ones that want to set on there collective asses and have freedom handed to them on a silver platter HIDE behind the unfortunate that really do need help. Furthermore they use that CHICKENSHIT example to force the folks that ARE PRODUCING AND CONTRIBUTING to society to GIVE them theirs! It is obvious to the PRODUCTIVE, CONTRIBUTERS that the tipping point has been reached between them and the ones that want everything for nothing. Now we become an oligarchy.

You are not promoting a healthy society, what you describe is almost the exact description of anarchy, which ironically is very similar to unregulated capitalism. The elephant in the room is that with capitalism, the more unregulated it becomes, the more people are born into servitude by financial status alone, with little or no hope to pull themselves out of it.

It's clear that you can't see that, or willfully ignore it. Just consider this my two cents on the matter and try not to call me names akin to 'libtard' or suggest that my head is in the sand.

I haven't seen the video and can't watch it from work, but I will say that you should look up the wikipedia page on Marxism, and rather than slander it to hell, read the beginning parts about WHY karl marx was philosophizing on ways to make capitalism a viable system, and the explanations on why capitalism cannot work without extreme regulation.

I point that out, not in support of marxism (it's a flawed system), but because the viewpoints and conclusions marxist thought provoked in considering capitalist society. It's a good read, regardless of your beliefs or affiliations.

Jeff, you are not a bad person and while we have rattled swords at times, I've realized that you just see things from a specific point of view. I only ask that you consider other points of view. When you make points, some I've heard before and have already pondered, and others I ponder when I read them, or take a few days to do some fact-finding to make my own conclusions. I'm far from perfect in my logics, and by understanding that, I always attempt to accept other points of view and at least give them consideration. I have a really great idea for a new topic, so not to hijack this one, but you inspired me to ponder a different aspect.. more later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y43a6BsNQb4&feature=youtu.be

This is a 10 minute video. If you can please watch. Especially for MikeNobody!

I've already seen that video.

Then what is your idea of a good form of government? It seems to me that greed is a natural human emotion and because of that all humans are subject to it in some capacity. That being said ANY form of government is going to be BAD for the majority of its citizens! IMO at least the american way (the way that built this country) which we americans today seem to have forgotten WAS best! The Chinese and other emerging economies are capitilizing on it. Of course it is a cruel world regardless of any form of govrnment and unfortunately some folks are going to get left behind, forgotten, swept under the rug! IMO at least with a free market you have the opportunity to advance and do well. IMO the ones that get left behind in a free market society are the ones that don't want to take the iniative to get up off their BUTT and make things happen. Their are in this free market some that need help. The problem is the ones that want to set on there collective asses and have freedom handed to them on a silver platter HIDE behind the unfortunate that really do need help. Furthermore they use that CHICKENSHIT example to force the folks that ARE PRODUCING AND CONTRIBUTING to society to GIVE them theirs! It is obvious to the PRODUCTIVE, CONTRIBUTERS that the tipping point has been reached between them and the ones that want everything for nothing. Now we become an oligarchy.

A BIG problem is a misunderstanding of the difference between an ECONOMIC system and a POLITICAL one.
It is important to be able to distinguish the difference when discussing politics or economics.
It does not help matters that the establishment has, for decades, made it part of their agenda to deliberately CONFLATE the two together as part of their Cold War strategies.

People are greedy, yes.
They are also generous.
They are also saintly and sociopathic.
They are anything and everything.
But, what behavior are you encouraging in the environment you create?
What outcomes are desired and are you achieving those outcomes, presently?
Is the system set up to encourage positive or negative outcomes?
And which system are you referring to?

My idea of a good government and/or economic system might take awhile to explain.
So, I often take shortcut examples when discussing this stuff.
Like Star Trek, or Logan's Run, etc..

You are not promoting a healthy society, what you describe is almost the exact description of anarchy, which ironically is very similar to unregulated capitalism. The elephant in the room is that with capitalism, the more unregulated it becomes, the more people are born into servitude by financial status alone, with little or no hope to pull themselves out of it.
.

OK, well that's a boatload....


What other economic system allows ANYONE to succeed?



Capitalism, with all it's flaws, is the only economic system that allows people to keep what they've earned and worked for. It is (was) the engine that made America great.

Only a commie could be against that. Looks like you've joined the crowd who wants to end America.

Greed isn't always a bad thing in business. It was greed that gave the world Microsoft and Apple, Ford and General Motors, American Airlines and Southwest, etc....

Those companies employ quite a few people, btw. I hope they are allowed to continue with the business atmosphere being fostered by der fuhrer.









.

Hmm ok, I'll bite. Let's talk-

OK, well that's a boatload....


What other economic system allows ANYONE to succeed?

every system allows people to succeed. The only systems that I can think of that do not are countries that are 3rd world and in chaos, and even in those, such as Somalia- people succeed, if only by leading gangs of criminals and murderers. Success is defined in many ways, but taking your point in your context, I believe that Mike even pointed out how Russia always had the Rubles.. there was money, and there were "wealthy" people, even in that communist society. What separated them from other wealthy people in other societies? Don't mean to answer a question with a question, but I really have to if we want to truly delve into it.

Capitalism, with all it's flaws, is the only economic system that allows people to keep what they've earned and worked for. It is (was) the engine that made America great.

I would argue in agreement that used to be true, mostly during our "great uprising" starting after WW2 up to and into the 90's. What is different now? Why are we failing? Why are so many more people falling into poverty? Why has the gap between the wealthy and poor reached the highest levels in american history? These are all questions worth discussing.

Only a commie could be against that. Looks like you've joined the crowd who wants to end America.

The system we have today is not the same system we had 50 years ago, which is not the same system they had 50 years before that, and so on. We might call it the same system in theory, but dramatic political and economic law changes have shaped that system. Political and social activism has changed that system.

Attacking me by calling me a commie, because I only wish to be active politically to change our system for the better is a cheap shot, and gives the impression that you aren't interested in positive discussion, but I'm clearly giving you the benefit of the doubt today. I'm in a good mood.

Greed isn't always a bad thing in business. It was greed that gave the world Microsoft and Apple, Ford and General Motors, American Airlines and Southwest, etc....

Those companies employ quite a few people, btw. I hope they are allowed to continue with the business atmosphere being fostered by der fuhrer.

Everyone who walks the earth is greedy. I don't pretend to say greed is a horrible thing and that everyone who is greedy is bad. Quite the opposite, we're all greedy- Some are greedy for more belongings, a better social status, a nice car.. others are greedy for attention or love, while more yet are greedy for knowledge, power, or even greedy for personal peace and harmony.

Any of those situations can get ugly when the greed itself manifests into obsession. Corporations by a matter of law are required to focus only on profit, regardless of the costs. There used to be strong regulations to control that, as demonstrated many times in US and world history that unfettered greed/capitalism leads to suffering of many for the gains of a few.

Those regulations have in the last 20 years, been dismantled, leaving greedy hungry monsters in it's wake. Corporations grew into giants during the strictest points in our economy. What we've seen since deregulation has been "too big to fail"- companies that have become so huge and monopolistic that we cannot even control them. They ignore laws, and often times the fines (when they do get punished) are far less than the profits, so they consider breaking laws and paying fines simply a part of doing business. The pharma industry is a poster-child of this system, as are most companies on wall st.

No, I don't mind strongly regulated capitalism. I do mind what we have today, which is bordering on fascism, and we all well know it. I know you view changing the system as something akin to amputating the leg because the toe has a splinter, but I don't believe it's like that- I like to believe we need to re-regulate the system, and put in better fixes to ensure it doesn't happen (this way) again. We appear to have learned nothing from the bailouts and crash on 2007 (I do consider it a crash, regardless of what the economists say).

So I ask:
Why can't we seem to admit there's a problem?
and, Why can't we seem to acknowledge history is repeating itself
and, Why can't we fix it?

Why can't we fix it is the easy one for me- my answer is because we won't acknowledge there's a problem (with capitalism as it exists today). Once we admit it, then we can move forward.

I brought up marxism, simply because the endless philosophizing that led to it was very focused on the exact flaws and problems we're having with capitalism itself.






.[/quote]

Kramer wrote;

You are not promoting a healthy society, what you describe is almost the exact description of anarchy, which ironically is very similar to unregulated capitalism. The elephant in the room is that with capitalism, the more unregulated it becomes, the more people are born into servitude by financial status alone, with little or no hope to pull themselves out of it.

I don't buy the whole no hope of pulling themselves out of it. I ain't the sharpest pencil in the box but I am HONEST! Honestly I use to have the same thought process as you Kramer. During the first 40 years of my life I blamed "the man" for my lack of success! That SOB gave me 21% interest loans, based my insurance bill on my credit rating instead of my driving record. Damn that SOB was keeping me down. I just couldn't get out of poverty and it was EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT! Then during an act of desperation the only way I could find any work during the recession of the 80's was to move to California of which both my sisters families did, or take the last $50.00 I had and advertise in the local papers. I was working the next day! After being in business for myself I saw the U.S. economy from a completely different perspective. Through that ad I found people willing to give me a chance and I worked night and day 2 jobs, plus music! That Mr. Kramer is why I view things from a very specific point of view. You see I pulled myself out of poverty.
There is a very fine undefinable line between under regulation and over regulation! If life hasn't taught me anything it has damn sure taught me that! Kramer I am done with the name calling until someone else starts it then its on brother! I am simply trying to understand the Hatred yourself and others on here have toward our economic system. I believe the President has founded the very basis of his adminstration on catering to the agenda of redistribution of wealth empowered by folks frustrated by that point of view!

That Mr. Kramer is why I view things from a very specific point of view. You see I pulled myself out of poverty.

In other words, "I got mine. So f*ck you."

That Mr. Kramer is why I view things from a very specific point of view. You see I pulled myself out of poverty.

In other words, "I got mine. So f*ck you."

Mike PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth! That is not what I said dude! You are a very intelligent man and I think you know better!

Karl Marx was above all an idealist, and the graveyards of the world are filled with evidence of Marxist idealism gone horribly wrong. There has never been a pure Marxist government and it can never really exist as long as humans are involved. Why doesn't Marxism work in the real world?

George Orwell gives us some really big clues:

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm/index.html

If you are currently thinking a Marxist solution might be the answer to our problems, this is worth a re-read... and it's free. What could be better than that.

Karl Marx was above all an idealist, and the graveyards of the world are filled with evidence of Marxist idealism gone horribly wrong. There has never been a pure Marxist government and it can never really exist as long as humans are involved. Why doesn't Marxism work in the real world?

George Orwell gives us some really big clues:

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm/index.html

If you are currently thinking a Marxist solution might be the answer to our problems, this is worth a re-read... and it's free. What could be better than that.

I won't argue against Marxist influenced governments being a failure.
But, I think Marx still made many relevant and accurate points in his assessment of capitalism.
His diagnosis was correct.
His prescription was, unfortunately, not.

Im a capitlist, Ive started and run business's since I was 23 years old.

One of them didnt go bankrupt, but if I had tryed to keep it running, it would have, so I had to make the decision of shutting it down, liquidating assetts, helping employees get new jobs. There wasnt any sort of bailout available for me.

Another business which I will share is a propane buisness. 2011 we lost money, mainly because of the weather, what did I do? My partner and I sat down last Jan and made a plan to cut spending, some huge cuts, for 2012 we rebounded.

Another business Im involved in is a cotton gin. Currently grain prices on the world market make more sense to area farmers to raise. Cotton production will be cut dramatically this year, how much? We dont really know yet, but we are preparing for it. We will weather the coming year, and try to be in business in 2013, we feel the market will change and swing ag back more cotton friendly.

I guess having gone thru the things I have, my view of government is tainted. Take the GM situation, instead of bailing it out, my thought was let the company be shrunk to a size that it could sustain itself, the same for wall street. Let the unprofitable business's fail.

Harsh I know, but Ive personally been thru the process a couple of times, and in the end things have worked out, Im not homeless, maybe i make less, but Ive been able to survive.

Our government seems to think there is an unlimited amount of money they can tap into when things go wrong. To me the true road to recovery in the world market today is streamlining, cutting cost, being more efficient. Not adding more taxes.

I guess Im rambling about my situation, which I know is way different from a lot of people on the forum, but I just wish that the government could be more accountable for spending my money. My personal pay check is smaller this year, so what do I do? I make adjustments and do the best I can.

@ Mike Nobody, I did not mean to make you hostile Mike about my remark about moving to a third world country if you do not like the idea of paying taxes to have a strong military that protects us from invasion etc. I only meant if you do move to a third world country chances are you will have more of a level playing field to compete against the natives already there, if you can obtain a work permit.. $500.00 would go along way in establishing your banana plantation! sorry about that,