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#198257 by DainNobody
Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:01 pm
GuitarMikeB wrote:Guns aren't the problem, people are the problem (as evidenced by this thread).

'Momma Lanza' seems like she was none too stable (the ex-husband hasn't come forward, as far as I can see), loves guns, takes her son with obvious mental issues to the gun range? Then makes it easy to get into her stash of weapons and blow her away.
Families and the government have to start taking responsibility for ensuring that those with mental illness are cared for and kept away from harming themselves and others.
Have you seen that 'I am Adam Lanza's Mother' thing going around? I don't know if its real or not, but a 9-year-old who threatens family with knives shoudln't be allowed to 'live a normal life' - when siblings have an 'escape plan' to hide in a locked car, mother hides all the knives in a tupperware box she takes with her - that's not a solution, its a stop-gap, and eventually that 9 year old will be 14 or 16 or 20 and have access to other weapons and the family with a 'plan' won't be there and others will be hurt.
once again, I reiterate, a GUN SAFE or trigger guards/locks installed on these firearms would have prevented the whacked out sonny boy from getting into the weapons cache

#198259 by Kramerguy
Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:10 pm
I've had this argument many times in the past, and I've been on both sides.

I'm a former gun owner.

I sold my guns, ammo, targets, etc.

Why? Because I could not abide with having guns in my house when I had a child on the way. No matter how much you think kids can be taught safety and no matter how big your safe and gun locks are, kids can and will find a way to get into them should they (or their friends) decide they want to play with the guns. If you think you can safely lock them away, think about how hard most of our parents tried to lock up the liquor.. and me, and just about all of my friends were able to get into the booze cabinets, and of course, usually ended up doing something stupid.


But anyways, that aside, the stats speak for themselves. It's undeniable fact that nations that have outright bans on guns have very few gun-related deaths, and zero mass-murders. No amount of guns will make anyone safer, that's a fantasy that is not supported by any math.

Yes, Jeff, you can save one mans life by wielding a gun, and you can equally save a mans life by getting into a gunfight with someone else who has guns. If the assailant didn't have a gun, things would probably not have escalated.

Do you understand the FEAR that guns cause? I can think of two recent personal cases, where someone in a public place was so blatantly rude and inconsiderate / hostile, that I wanted to defend myself or family verbally. But I couldn't. In both cases, the 'offender' appeared to be mentally/emotionally unstable (angry, not retarded), and was wearing baggy enough clothes that a gun could be anywhere.

WHY in the hell would ME having a gun make those kind of situations any safer? I say something.. we get into an argument, and then the gun comes out.. now I might be able to draw and defend myself, but probably not.. the more unstable person will draw first, and ultimately, this ain't the wild west... In most cases, I would not have the time to draw and would be shot and probably die trying.

No.. guns being so attainable isn't the answer. In the UK, I'd gladly take the risk of saying something because the likelyhood of him being armed is about the same as me purchasing a winning powerball ticket.

But here? I honestly think in both cases that I could have easily ended up with a bullet in my back as I would be diving for cover when this freak pulls out his gun.


I DO believe people have the right to target-shoot, hunt, and DEFEND themselves against government or foreign invaders.

And there is a simple solution...

Armory. All guns should be stored in an armory. Armory should be controlled by local elected and paid "agents of the public trust" (yay, job creation!) If you need to hunt- you go check out your gun and when you get back from your trip, you check it back in.. same with the ammo. Target shooting same thing.. you can check out a public gun, or your own private one. There could be far more control over who's hands they go into and exactly who is responsible for each gun, via a nationally shared and simple "yes" list by SS# and positive ID, of course. WHO can check out guns should have to pass safety tests, a psych exam, and other careful scrutiny. If you aren't on the yes list, then you can't check out a gun.

"loaning" or allowing anyone else to use the gun is highly illegal and punishments should be extreme jail time. If a crime is committed with a "straw" loan, the person who loaned it is equally as guilty, unless it's stolen from them, of course, but even then, it must be reported the minute it's discovered stolen.

Ban all assault rifles.. and high capacity clips. There's no need for them for hunting or target practice. They can be owned by the armory for purposes of security (regional or national) and dispensed to citizens in the case of an emergency, but never checked out for recreation.

Having an armory controlled locally fixes many issues WITHOUT taking away the 2nd amendment. It's really the only solution, because with these mass slaughters of kids becoming more prevalent, gun enthusiasts might want to just accept that they will be lucky to avoid outright bannings.

So all you gun enthusiasts- this is a friendly word of warning- Stop. Think. Compromise. Things CANNOT continue the way they are, and more guns aren't going to make gun deaths go down. You are foolish to think that, and should start thinking about how you can KEEP your 2nd amendment rights. See the writing on the wall and start working towards solutions that can work. Look at the statistics (the real ones, not the NRA's) on gun safety and kill rates per country and start thinking about letting go of the dogma that the NRA spouts at you, things must change.

I'm tired of watching malls, schools, post offices, corporate offices, and everywhere else being shot up by people with guns that they shouldn't have. You can't arm the entire nation and expect anything but the wild west.

Just stop, and think. I know you guys will react anyways and slam me, but this isn't me talking, it's most parents out there. You want democracy? Well the majority wants gun control. Real control, not this crap we have now.

#198264 by J-HALEY
Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:44 pm
Kramerguy wrote:I've had this argument many times in the past, and I've been on both sides.

I'm a former gun owner.

I sold my guns, ammo, targets, etc.

Why? Because I could not abide with having guns in my house when I had a child on the way. No matter how much you think kids can be taught safety and no matter how big your safe and gun locks are, kids can and will find a way to get into them should they (or their friends) decide they want to play with the guns. If you think you can safely lock them away, think about how hard most of our parents tried to lock up the liquor.. and me, and just about all of my friends were able to get into the booze cabinets, and of course, usually ended up doing something stupid.


But anyways, that aside, the stats speak for themselves. It's undeniable fact that nations that have outright bans on guns have very few gun-related deaths, and zero mass-murders. No amount of guns will make anyone safer, that's a fantasy that is not supported by any math.

Yes, Jeff, you can save one mans life by wielding a gun, and you can equally save a mans life by getting into a gunfight with someone else who has guns. If the assailant didn't have a gun, things would probably not have escalated.

Do you understand the FEAR that guns cause? I can think of two recent personal cases, where someone in a public place was so blatantly rude and inconsiderate / hostile, that I wanted to defend myself or family verbally. But I couldn't. In both cases, the 'offender' appeared to be mentally/emotionally unstable (angry, not retarded), and was wearing baggy enough clothes that a gun could be anywhere.

WHY in the hell would ME having a gun make those kind of situations any safer? I say something.. we get into an argument, and then the gun comes out.. now I might be able to draw and defend myself, but probably not.. the more unstable person will draw first, and ultimately, this ain't the wild west... In most cases, I would not have the time to draw and would be shot and probably die trying.

No.. guns being so attainable isn't the answer. In the UK, I'd gladly take the risk of saying something because the likelyhood of him being armed is about the same as me purchasing a winning powerball ticket.

But here? I honestly think in both cases that I could have easily ended up with a bullet in my back as I would be diving for cover when this freak pulls out his gun.


I DO believe people have the right to target-shoot, hunt, and DEFEND themselves against government or foreign invaders.

And there is a simple solution...

Armory. All guns should be stored in an armory. Armory should be controlled by local elected and paid "agents of the public trust" (yay, job creation!) If you need to hunt- you go check out your gun and when you get back from your trip, you check it back in.. same with the ammo. Target shooting same thing.. you can check out a public gun, or your own private one. There could be far more control over who's hands they go into and exactly who is responsible for each gun, via a nationally shared and simple "yes" list by SS# and positive ID, of course. WHO can check out guns should have to pass safety tests, a psych exam, and other careful scrutiny. If you aren't on the yes list, then you can't check out a gun.

"loaning" or allowing anyone else to use the gun is highly illegal and punishments should be extreme jail time. If a crime is committed with a "straw" loan, the person who loaned it is equally as guilty, unless it's stolen from them, of course, but even then, it must be reported the minute it's discovered stolen.

Ban all assault rifles.. and high capacity clips. There's no need for them for hunting or target practice. They can be owned by the armory for purposes of security (regional or national) and dispensed to citizens in the case of an emergency, but never checked out for recreation.

Having an armory controlled locally fixes many issues WITHOUT taking away the 2nd amendment. It's really the only solution, because with these mass slaughters of kids becoming more prevalent, gun enthusiasts might want to just accept that they will be lucky to avoid outright bannings.

So all you gun enthusiasts- this is a friendly word of warning- Stop. Think. Compromise. Things CANNOT continue the way they are, and more guns aren't going to make gun deaths go down. You are foolish to think that, and should start thinking about how you can KEEP your 2nd amendment rights. See the writing on the wall and start working towards solutions that can work. Look at the statistics (the real ones, not the NRA's) on gun safety and kill rates per country and start thinking about letting go of the dogma that the NRA spouts at you, things must change.

I'm tired of watching malls, schools, post offices, corporate offices, and everywhere else being shot up by people with guns that they shouldn't have. You can't arm the entire nation and expect anything but the wild west.

Just stop, and think. I know you guys will react anyways and slam me, but this isn't me talking, it's most parents out there. You want democracy? Well the majority wants gun control. Real control, not this crap we have now.


Dream on brother dream on! NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN! :wink:

#198265 by Kramerguy
Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:50 pm
Charlotte Bacon, 6

Daniel Barden, 7

Olivia Engel, 6

Josephine Gay, 7

Ana Marquez-Greene, 6

Dylan Hockley, 6

Madeline Hsu, 6

Catherine Hubbard, 6

Chase Kowalski, 7

Jesse Lewis, 6

James Mattioli, 6

Grace McDonnell, 7

Emilie Parker, 6

Jack Pinto, 6

Noah Pozner, 6

Caroline Previdi, 6

Jessica Rekos, 6

Avielle Richman, 6

Benjamin Wheeler, 6

Allison Wyatt, 6

All in about 15 minutes.

It's gonna happen J, no way to stop it now. Compromise is your only option. Better to compromise than lose.

#198269 by gtZip
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:06 pm
That armory idea is dumb.
Sorry, KG.

You don't have to lock up your stoves and hope they never find out about hot burners.
When they are able to understand, you impart the solemn, serious facts to your children.

Up to certain age, yes it is a risk. After that it's on the parents.
And yeah, if you don't think you can get the point across as a parent, then don't have firearms in the house.

#198271 by DainNobody
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:07 pm
kramerguy, you are old enough like me at 57 yeras of age, to remember the Bernhard Goetz incident back in the 1980's? was Goetz wrong defending himself against thugs with use of a handgun that in one of the thugs own words later on after the incident admitted they were going to rob him and said Goetz looked like "easy bait"

#198272 by Mike Nobody
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:12 pm
Dane Ellis Allen wrote:kramerguy, you are old enough like me at 57 yeras of age, to remember the Bernhard Goetz incident back in the 1980's? was Goetz wrong defending himself against thugs with use of a handgun that in one of the thugs own words later on after the incident admitted they were going to rob him and said Goetz looked like "easy bait"

Bernhard Goetz was convicted though, wasn't he?

#198274 by J-HALEY
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:22 pm
Kramerguy wrote:Charlotte Bacon, 6

Daniel Barden, 7

Olivia Engel, 6

Josephine Gay, 7

Ana Marquez-Greene, 6

Dylan Hockley, 6

Madeline Hsu, 6

Catherine Hubbard, 6

Chase Kowalski, 7

Jesse Lewis, 6

James Mattioli, 6

Grace McDonnell, 7

Emilie Parker, 6

Jack Pinto, 6

Noah Pozner, 6

Caroline Previdi, 6

Jessica Rekos, 6

Avielle Richman, 6

Benjamin Wheeler, 6

Allison Wyatt, 6

All in about 15 minutes.

It's gonna happen J, no way to stop it now. Compromise is your only option. Better to compromise than lose.


I love how you flaming liberals keep posting these little kids picture's and names to forward YOUR agenda of gun control SHAME ON YOU! Using the memory of those poor MURDERED CHILDREN to push your gun control agenda! Thats just the LOWEST thing I have ever seen! You and Jimmy are real peices of work! :roll:

#198275 by Deadguitars
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:23 pm
Mike Nobody wrote:
Dane Ellis Allen wrote:kramerguy, you are old enough like me at 57 yeras of age, to remember the Bernhard Goetz incident back in the 1980's? was Goetz wrong defending himself against thugs with use of a handgun that in one of the thugs own words later on after the incident admitted they were going to rob him and said Goetz looked like "easy bait"

Bernhard Goetz was convicted though, wasn't he?

Only of carrying a unlicensed gun.

#198276 by Mike Nobody
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:25 pm
J-HALEY wrote:
Kramerguy wrote:Charlotte Bacon, 6

Daniel Barden, 7

Olivia Engel, 6

Josephine Gay, 7

Ana Marquez-Greene, 6

Dylan Hockley, 6

Madeline Hsu, 6

Catherine Hubbard, 6

Chase Kowalski, 7

Jesse Lewis, 6

James Mattioli, 6

Grace McDonnell, 7

Emilie Parker, 6

Jack Pinto, 6

Noah Pozner, 6

Caroline Previdi, 6

Jessica Rekos, 6

Avielle Richman, 6

Benjamin Wheeler, 6

Allison Wyatt, 6

All in about 15 minutes.

It's gonna happen J, no way to stop it now. Compromise is your only option. Better to compromise than lose.


I love how you flaming liberals keep posting these little kids picture's and names to forward YOUR agenda of gun control SHAME ON YOU! Using the memory of those poor MURDERED CHILDREN to push your gun control agenda! Thats just the LOWEST thing I have ever seen! You and Jimmy are real peices of work! :roll:


Oh! C'mon! Conservatives do much worse.
9/11
You don't think they use tragedy and misfortune to push an agenda?
9/11
Puh-leeze!
9/11

#198278 by Deadguitars
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:27 pm
J-HALEY wrote:
I love how you flaming liberals

Everyone has a horse in the race. Even you.
:?

#198279 by Kramerguy
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:30 pm
Hey I offered a solution. Call it an opinion, call it whatever, but at least I'm offering something more than banter and insults.

I've yet to see any SOLUTIONS outside of give every kid a glock and then send him to his GF's house to find her macking with his BFF.. yeah, he will be responsible and tell his friend in eloquent words about how hurt his feelings are, and probably forgive him, then they can go shopping for new shirts together.

Can you honestly say there was never a point in your lives where you were so angry that if you had a gun, things might have gotten out of hand? If you say no, then you are probably a liar.

#198281 by Kramerguy
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:36 pm
J-HALEY wrote:
I love how you flaming liberals keep posting these little kids picture's and names to forward YOUR agenda of gun control SHAME ON YOU! Using the memory of those poor MURDERED CHILDREN to push your gun control agenda! Thats just the LOWEST thing I have ever seen! You and Jimmy are real peices of work! :roll:


If my daughters name was on that list, would you make the same accusations? It could have been just as easily hers as anyone's.. she went to school that day just like millions of other kids.

I'm NOT a liberal, you are still very confused and ignorant to assert that any political belief that differs from yours is "librul" and therefore bad.

One only needs to read the arguments against gun control to realize just how much more of it we need.

#198282 by J-HALEY
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:37 pm
Kramerguy wrote:Hey I offered a solution. Call it an opinion, call it whatever, but at least I'm offering something more than banter and insults.

I've yet to see any SOLUTIONS outside of give every kid a glock and then send him to his GF's house to find her macking with his BFF.. yeah, he will be responsible and tell his friend in eloquent words about how hurt his feelings are, and probably forgive him, then they can go shopping for new shirts together.

Can you honestly say there was never a point in your lives where you were so angry that if you had a gun, things might have gotten out of hand? If you say no, then you are probably a liar.


Always had guns and haven't shot anyone yet! I came close one time and diffused a DEADLY situation! What your offering is an invitation to be slaughtered by criminals with guns. I know you feel like at least you are trying but NO THANKS! I am not buying your stick your head in the sand solution. :roll:

#198285 by DainNobody
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:43 pm
If they ever outlaw guns, do you really think gun owners will voluntarily give them up? what's next outlawing flame throwers? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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