General Chat (Non-Music-Related)

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I preface my response by saying that it is truly an epic tragedy that more Israelis and more Palestinians are going to die because this kind of libelous propoganda gives cover to terrorists like Hamas, when we should be condemning the violence these brutal terrorists bring on all people of the region...and possibly on us if this skirmish turns into WWIII.


Truly the difference is that Israeli soldiers will stand in front of a baby carriage to protect that child regardless of what race the baby is....and Hamas will hide behind it.

It is more appalling that Hamas would find cover on this discussion board since listening to rock music is punishable by death in Gaza.

I would never beat my wife but I could kick your ass if I ever had too. Why do you resort to such childishness ? I surmise Desperation.

Don't know why I assumed you were capable of understanding that I was only responding in kind to the logical fallacy you were making.

You started with an assumption of lies as if it were truth, and I see no reason to treat it like a serious question so I did the same back to you.

Warsaw Ghetto was Nazi Occupied and Gaza is Israeli Occupied.

No, it is not. Hasn't been under Israeli occupation since at least since the unilteral disengagement of August of 2005, and it wasn't "occupied" before then either.

Furthermore, the Nazis were systematically annihilating Jews from all the various ghettos. Israel has never intended nor attempted a program of annihilation of arabs who call themselves Palestinian. Yes, they will kill a terrorist to stop them from murdering innocent people, but it has nothing to do with racism when they confront a murderous ideology which must be stopped.

Therefore the charge is LIBEL (a lie designed to mischaracterize)

Warsaw Ghetto was the largest of all Jewish Ghettos and Gaza has the largest concentration of Palestinians in the world within it.

Since it is "their" country, why wouldn't it be? Do I need to tell you that the largest concentration of Germans live in Germany? Do you know that the largest concentration of Chinese is in China?


Conclusion: LIBEL

Warsaw Ghetto had a huge population crammed into a small area.
Gaza has a huge population crammed into a small area.

Gaza is 139 square miles, the Warsaw Ghetto was 1. There are a little over a million people in Gaza, and there were half a million in Warsaw ghetto. That is 139 times the density in Warsaw, so your "facts" are skewed to produce libel.

Israel also has a large population crammed into a small area, btw. The Apartheid muslim nations around them will not accept any Jews, but the arabs who call themselves Palestinian can emigrate to lands containing more than 40 million square miles....and they do. Israel does nothing to hold them in Gaza (or anywhere else)

Palestinian population numbers from the U.N.:


Gaza Strip 1,106,195
West Bank 778,993
Lebanon 425,640
Syria 472,109
Jordan 1,983,733

Within the borders of ISRAEL proper, there are 1.3 million Palestinians also.

AGAIN....your "facts" are not truth at all

Conclusion: LIBEL

Jews were rounded up and herded and kept in the Warsaw Ghetto.
Palestinians were rounded up and herded and kept in Gaza.

That's just delusional. Another logical fallacy that didn't happen.

Egypt controlled Gaza until they lost it in the 67 war. It was full of arabs when Israel gained political control, but Israel did what Egypt would not: they gave Gaza freedom to be an independant nation. What have they done with it? First they elected Hamas, a terrorist entity and satelite of Iranian mullahs. Then their newly-elected leaders squandered the economic aid Israel extended to them in territories surrendered to them. They have murdered anyone in Gaza who stands in their way, they have stolen the foreign aid given by the international community to enrich themselves. Really nice folks.

Gaza is a satelite state of Iran and imposes sharia law on it's citizens, including a small christian minority who are being brutalized, murdered, tortured, and persecuted on a daily basis...but not by Israel....by Palestinians. Where is the world's condemnation about it? Not a peep.

Conclusion: LIBEL

The Nazis closed the Warsaw Ghetto to the outside world.
The Israelis have closed Gaza to the outside world.

Again more logical fallacy. This is a lie easily disproven for anyone with eyes to see.


Both Israel AND Egypt have imposed a blockade of Gaza to prevent weapons smuggling. Why? Because Hamas/Gaza is a satelite of Iran.

Israel maintains open channels for any and all LEGAL goods to be shipped into Gaza. As I've pointed out several times already, there are legal channels for customs in every nation. Why do you single out Israel for doing what every nation does to protects it's citizens and it's borders? I'll tell you why...

LIBEL

Warsaw Ghetto was surrounded by walls and barbed wire.
Gaza is surrounded by wals and barbed wire.

As is the southern border of the USA. So?


When those fences weren't there, homicide bombers were going into Israel and killing innocent civilians....targeting kids purposely. What do you propose here? Asking "pretty please" didn't work, so Israel builit a fence and guess what? It worked!

Homicide bombing have almost completely disappeared. If you are someone who truly rejoices at the protection of innocent life, you should be very happy.


Conclusion: more Libel

Escapees from the Warsaw Ghetto were shot on sight.
Israelis created a Special Security Zone in Gaza where anyone in that zone is shot on sight.

Wow....really?

Jews were murdered daily and casually even within the Warsaw Ghetto. No comparison whatsoever.

No, the Security Zone was established in 2005 to put innocent civilian areas of Israel out of reach to Qussam Rockets being launched from the terrorists of Gaza.

Conclusion: more Libel

Warsaw Ghetto Borders were changed many times.
Gaza's Borders have been changed many times.

That is closest thing to the truth you've said so far.


Yes, Israel EXPANDED Gaza's size in 2005 by putting a security zone around it, making it even larger.

But you act as if that is a bad thing, so the conclusion is: more Libel

The Warsaw Ghetto was divided excluding certain areas.
Gaza is divided excluding certain areas.

Again.....the buffer space of the security zone is to put Israeli cities out of reach to Hamas rockets.

In Warsaw the entire ghetto was only a holding place for utter annihilation. No so in Gaza.


Conclusion: Libel

(Though I concede it was repeated in a very creative way! )

Also in the Warsaw Ghetto food and medicl supplies were rationed...

In Gaza, the blame lies fully with hamas.

Food and medical supplies are generally rationed in any war zone where it is difficult to maintain distribution channels.

The difference between what happened in Warsaw and what happens in Gaza is obvious for an intellectually honest person. The purpose in Warsaw was to annihilate the Jews.

In Gaza, Hamas uses ambulances and any pretense of medical neutrality as a smuggling strategy for weapons, putting their own citizens in extreme danger by doing so. They hide these illegally smuggled weapons in hospitals and elementary schools, knowing that Israel has a conscience, though Hamas is not prohibited by having one.

more libel....

Unemployment was a major problem ... "illegal" goods were sold "illegally" on the outside and raw goods were smuggled in. Smuggling was often the only source of subsistance for Warsaw Ghetto inhabitants. Despite grave hardships imposed by the Nazis the Warsaw Ghetto was rich with culture conducted by underground organizations.

There were random killings all the time by the Nazis. There was a ressistence in the Warsaw Ghetto.

Which is how it should have been in Warsaw....


The glaring difference is that in Warsaw it was imposed from the outside on an innocent population who had committed no crime.

In Gaza, it is imposed from both inside and out on a nation administered by known terrorists. In Gaza, the problem is corruption at the highest levels of the Hamas government (or what is left of them today). If they renounce violence and terrorism, Israel will be their best friend.

Gaza police regularly ask for bribe up to $5,000 for a citizen to go through the Rafah border crossing, btw.

So you have only implied more libel




11 up and 11 down....

There ya go....EVERY single one of these libelous accusations shown to be pure lies and propoganda. Many of them have been shown to be so several times now. Repeating them will not make them true.

Here is something you can bank on:

Hamas, and indeed all Islamic or anti-semitic media outlets, will not tell you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth when the subject is Israel.

Ive been to the region 5 times now to study the situation first hand. Until you've done that, I could understand how you can fall for the deception of liars and terrorists.

But once the truth has been shown to you, you have no excuse for not examining the evidence and coming to the right conclusion. That conclusion is not libel.




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Now if we can figure out why YOD is so staunch on being obstreperous.

It should be obvious because I've stated the reason many times now. Truth matters to me.

Not having a pic or demo up doesn't have the same results as allowing slanderous libel to go forth unopposed.

My desire for the truth in this particular case is for the protection of all innocent life, arab & jew, Israeli & Palestinian, muslim, christian, or otherwise.

Since it appears that Vampier wants to rewrite historical fact, someone needs to help him see through those illusions of propoganda.



Here is more proof that we're comparing apple and orangutangs:

As Israeli forces intensify their campaign to put an end to the terrorist rocket threat emanating from Gaza, the Israel Defense Forces are taking unprecedented steps to avoid civilian casualties, often at the cost of successfully completing their missions.

The IDF has made thousands of phone calls to Palestinian homes located near terrorist targets warning residents beforehand of an impending strike. The IDF has also dropped thousands of leaflets over Gaza that read: "For your own safety, take responsibility for yourselves and avoid being present in the vicinity of Hamas operatives and facilities and those of other terror organizations that pose a risk to your safety."

Sadly, Hamas and its allied terror groups have a cynical disregard for all life, even the lives of Palestinians. They are known to actively seek civilian casualties for use in the public relations battle to delegitimize Israel. Despite Hamas' best efforts, the IDF's policies have paid off, and, while every civilian casualty is tragic, the ratio of civilian deaths to combatants killed in Gaza is unprecedentedly low. (Israel Today/Ryan Jones)

Meanwhile, Gaza is also forbidding all foreigners in it's territory from leaving the war zone they created. The purpose should be clear to anyone who understands Hamas modus operandi: to hide behind them as human shields in the hope that some of them will die, making them useful propoganda.






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Oh well I tried..not much else I can say without repeating myself.

Does it count as saving someone's life if you just refrain from killing them?

or if you were killed in the attempt?

First of all, Stephan, I don't understand your aggression against Israel. Zionism. After WW2 this was land that was given them by a large world authority opinion. WHY? I can't explain. It is what it is.
The scary thing, far beyond the creation of a new nation is the fact that it was created by a NEW WORLD ORDER. The question remains by who, and by what right. I am not sure if this is the reasoning you are taking, without looking beyond what is.

Yod, You are absolutely correct in many of the points you make.
This has been going on since Israel was founded. This only proves out some of the points I have made.

If someone starts shooting into my house,,,,,,, Let the HELL begin.

This is a difficult issue. I feel zionist Israel has exercised extreme control. WAR. You go in and kill every man, woman and child.
Israel will never do that, but,
THAT IS WAR.
Study hitler.

Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a form of nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that supports a Jewish nation state in territory defined as the Land of Israel.[1] Zionism supports Jews upholding their Jewish identity and opposes the assimilation of Jews into other societies and has advocated the return of Jews to Israel as a means for Jews to be liberated from anti-Semitic discrimination, exclusion, and persecution that has occurred in other societies.[1] Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to advocate on behalf of the Jewish state and address threats to its continued existence and security. In a less common usage, the term may also refer to non-political, cultural Zionism, founded and represented most prominently by Ahad Ha'am; and political support for the State of Israel by non-Jews, as in Christian Zionism.

Critics of Zionism consider it a colonialist[2] or racist[3] movement. Some scholars consider certain forms[4][5] of opposition to Zionism to constitute Antisemitism.[6][7]

I used the above definition, knowing that my own could be tainted,
not being overly familiar with Jewish culture.

Now considering the overwhelming tide of nationalism that has been surging since the breakup of the soviet union.
so whats so bad about Zionism?

all borders are established through struggle. and citizenship is defined by the victors.
rights are defined by the inclusion in the order of citizenship.
land rights are established by the acquiescence to the executors of the legitimate violence.
this is going on in almost every part of the world.
why deny it to the Jews?
if someone can prevent the establishment of citizenship, then one accepts the concept of one world goverment, (if there is such a thing)

Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a form of nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that supports a Jewish nation state in territory defined as the Land of Israel.[1] Zionism supports Jews upholding their Jewish identity and opposes the assimilation of Jews into other societies and has advocated the return of Jews to Israel as a means for Jews to be liberated from anti-Semitic discrimination, exclusion, and persecution that has occurred in other societies.[1] Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to advocate on behalf of the Jewish state and address threats to its continued existence and security. In a less common usage, the term may also refer to non-political, cultural Zionism, founded and represented most prominently by Ahad Ha'am; and political support for the State of Israel by non-Jews, as in Christian Zionism.

Critics of Zionism consider it a colonialist[2] or racist[3] movement. Some scholars consider certain forms[4][5] of opposition to Zionism to constitute Antisemitism.[6][7]

I used the above definition, knowing that my own could be tainted,
not being overly familiar with Jewish culture.

Now considering the overwhelming tide of nationalism that has been surging since the breakup of the soviet union.
so whats so bad about Zionism?

all borders are established through struggle. and citizenship is defined by the victors.
rights are defined by the inclusion in the order of citizenship.
land rights are established by the acquiescence to the executors of the legitimate violence.
this is going on in almost every part of the world.
why deny it to the Jews?
if someone can prevent the establishment of citizenship, then one accepts the concept of one world goverment, (if there is such a thing)

Yes, there is such a thing as a one world government.
It's called corporations.
Nation-states are just their puppets at this point.
Elections are just a formality of choosing which puppet to be the public face.
I'm generally okay with the concept of a one world government.
The rub is, which kind.
Certainly not what we've got now.
I'd LIKE to see the US gradually usurp the role of the UN, gradually increasing the number of states in the union until all governments are states in the USA.
But, we've got a LOT of housecleaning to do before such a thing would be viable or really desirable; electoral reforms, getting corporate money out of elections, etc.

As for Zionism, it's flat on it's face Jewish racism: the conceit that Jews are The Chosen People and must have their own ethnically pure nation. It's the same bullshit that the Nazis used to rationalize everything they did...for an Aryan Nation.
I've mentioned before that Michigan has the highest population of Jews and Arabs in America...and they get along fine. So, f*ck the middle east.

Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a form of nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that supports a Jewish nation state in territory defined as the Land of Israel.[1] Zionism supports Jews upholding their Jewish identity and opposes the assimilation of Jews into other societies and has advocated the return of Jews to Israel as a means for Jews to be liberated from anti-Semitic discrimination, exclusion, and persecution that has occurred in other societies.[1] Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to advocate on behalf of the Jewish state and address threats to its continued existence and security. In a less common usage, the term may also refer to non-political, cultural Zionism, founded and represented most prominently by Ahad Ha'am; and political support for the State of Israel by non-Jews, as in Christian Zionism.

Critics of Zionism consider it a colonialist[2] or racist[3] movement. Some scholars consider certain forms[4][5] of opposition to Zionism to constitute Antisemitism.[6][7]

I used the above definition, knowing that my own could be tainted,
not being overly familiar with Jewish culture.

Now considering the overwhelming tide of nationalism that has been surging since the breakup of the soviet union.
so whats so bad about Zionism?


As for Zionism, it's flat on it's face Jewish racism: the conceit that Jews are The Chosen People and must have their own ethnically pure nation. It's the same bullshit that the Nazis used to rationalize everything they did...for an Aryan Nation.
I've mentioned before that Michigan has the highest population of Jews and Arabs in America...and they get along fine. So, f*ck the middle east.

everyone thinks they are the chosen people.
all forms of nationalism are closely related to German nationalism.
one world goverment concepts are a form of national socialism.
just not German. but it must be established by the same means.
so the Jews think they have the moral imperative to be exclusive, so what?
so do all nations.
if we ban nationalism you could find your self without a nation at all
just a refugee from Europe. and they might not want you back.
so you would die in a camp.
without rights, without a representative.

everyone thinks they are the chosen people.
all forms of nationalism are closely related to German nationalism.
one world goverment concepts are a form of national socialism.
just not German. but it must be established by the same means.
so the Jews think they have the moral imperative to be exclusive, so what?
so do all nations.
if we ban nationalism you could find your self without a nation at all
just a refugee from Europe. and they might not want you back.
so you would die in a camp.
without rights, without a representative.

I am French-Irish-German-Cherokee...I wouldn't know what nation to go to anyway.

everyone thinks they are the chosen people.
all forms of nationalism are closely related to German nationalism.
one world goverment concepts are a form of national socialism.
just not German. but it must be established by the same means.
so the Jews think they have the moral imperative to be exclusive, so what?
so do all nations.
if we ban nationalism you could find your self without a nation at all
just a refugee from Europe. and they might not want you back.
so you would die in a camp.
without rights, without a representative.

I am French-Irish-German-Cherokee...I wouldn't know what nation to go to anyway.

and that is my point,
perhaps you're jealous that the jew knows he's a jew, and he has no doubt where to go.
and the immigrants of america, losing their claim on the land they took by force of arms, would be, of course surplus population.

everyone thinks they are the chosen people.
all forms of nationalism are closely related to German nationalism.
one world goverment concepts are a form of national socialism.
just not German. but it must be established by the same means.
so the Jews think they have the moral imperative to be exclusive, so what?
so do all nations.
if we ban nationalism you could find your self without a nation at all
just a refugee from Europe. and they might not want you back.
so you would die in a camp.
without rights, without a representative.

I am French-Irish-German-Cherokee...I wouldn't know what nation to go to anyway.

and that is my point,
perhaps you're jealous that the jew knows he's a jew, and he has no doubt where to go.
and the immigrants of america, losing their claim on the land they took by force of arms, would be, of course surplus population.

Jealous? No.
I know where I belong.
100% American mutt... by way of Canada.
It's people who claim to be pure this or pure that that have the problem.
Because, really, no one is exactly pure anything...except human.
Until they realize their common humanity they will keep segregating themselves into little boxes and fight over who has the biggest box.

true
but without nationalism, a citizen has no rights.
the border, or box as you call it
is the perimeter of the rights you have to defend.
you may argue that you can defend your own rights, alone.
but we all know this is a fantasy,
a man alone is quickly overwhelmed by any passing motorcycle gang.

New world order. National socialism, world wide. One world government.
That is the way to establish one king to make sweeping decisions.
Zionism is such a minor thing, the same as abortion.
If any one believes one or a few will fairly redistribute the wealth of the world,,,, I don't see it.
All I see is violations of the constitution of the greatest nation of the world.
As much as this nation has screwed up, attacking, when we shouldn't, we as a people are also the most giving and sharing nation that has ever existed.
If any one thinks we should give up the underlying reason, count me out.

FREEDOM, personal responsibility and tolerance.
I see far to many have lost the understanding of that concept.

BYE BYE FREEDOM.

true
but without nationalism, a citizen has no rights.
the border, or box as you call it
is the perimeter of the rights you have to defend.
you may argue that you can defend your own rights, alone.
but we all know this is a fantasy,
a man alone is quickly overwhelmed by any passing motorcycle gang.

No man is an island. - John Donne

No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.