General Music Chat

Appreciation for a varied array of forms does not constitute ambition. David Brubeck ambitiously amassed wealth off of one, maybe two songs ever...The commercial 'Take Five, and Rondala Turk...I think

not sure i get where you're coming from p-dog. are you implying that brubeck recorded these tunes because he was ambitiously seeking commercial success?

"Take Five" was written by Paul Desmond the alto saxophonist in his band. I seriously doubt commercial success was a driving force in anything the Quartet did. i mean.....these guys were some seriously smart brainiacs who wouldn't be thinking "hey, i know.... let's record a jazz tune in 5/4 because it's destined to be a huge hit!" same deal w "Blue Rondo A La Turk"....not exactly commercial fare that anyone think "oh, great! we've got a sure fire hit on our hands"

I've not read it or ever seen a copy but paul desmond wrote a book about life on the road w The Dave Brubeck Quartet. i've always loved the title..."How Many Are In The Quartet?"

as for ornette. i know a lot of people have big respect for him and others think he's a faker. i've given his music a fair shot more than once. it just doesn't get it for me.

he has this "harmolodic theory" where in his own words he said..."where is it written that everyone has to play in the same key? why should we all have to play in the same key?"

...uh, i dunno....because it SOUNDS GOOD MUTHAFUCKER??!?!?!?!

there were many serious musicians who similarly thought that Thelonius Monk was a fake and couldn't play either. all you have do is listen to monk play some stride and that should put that notion to rest. or listen to " 'Round About Midnight"...you don't write a song like that w those changes unless you SERIOUSLY have your sheet together.

Ornette on the other hand....i hate his tone. ugly. i've never heard him play anything gutbucket that hit me below the waist. and i can't think of one of his compositions that anyone might walk down the street humming or whistling.

yeah, i get it.....that's not what's he's about. but that's why i don't dig his stuff. outside is fine....but you HAVE bring it back in a LITTLE bit for me every now and then. i don't have a problem w SOME tension (hell, listen to the tunes i currently have up on my profile page) but there's enough tension in the world and in my life that i don't seek more of it when i make my listening choices.

still, always best to try to keep an open mind.

Most people do not realize that Brubeck's "Rondo alla Turk" (and later Keith Emerson's "Rondo 69") is a send-up of Mozart's "Rondo alla Turca", one of the most famous piano pieces in classical music. As far as commercial intentions, I think every artist has ambitions of their music being heard by as many people as possible. Just because it is successful does not make the artist a 'sell-out'. Only when an artist intentionally changes their art to increase sales can they be considered a sell-out.

As far as commercial intentions, I think every artist has ambitions of their music being heard by as many people as possible. Just because it is successful does not make the artist a 'sell-out'. Only when an artist intentionally changes their art to increase sales can they be considered a sell-out.

i agree. commercial success does not equal selling out.

every (or at least most) musician(s) want their work to be heard and appreciated by as many as possible. but to my thinking that's not of itself "commercial ambition"....."commercial ambition" would be looking for the $ score or the fame score.

At this point in my life thinking of music in a commercial way is out of the question. I mean, recording now is so available. Cd Baby is there, even Amazon. All kinds of marketing ideas. All of it put together isn't why we are doing this project. We are doing it because we hooked up, tried it, liked it, are recording, and those sessions we feel worthy of production will be put out there for anyone to listen to who might enjoy it. If no one bought a single CD that's okay. We'll make them anyway, if just for our own enjoyment and learning experience.

Neither of us have any intentions of thinking about music as a career at this point in life. I'd love to be a full time musician, but reality is reality for me.

If the Beatles hummed for 40 minutes and recorded it, it would have been commercially successful. Some would have panned it. Some would love its "statement," others would just buy it for collections sake, and musicians would have written lyrics for it all.

In the modern world music and business kind of get blurred.

well I would be much more impressed if you were a sophisticated composer instead of such a sophisticated audience.

and you'll be having much more success impressing planetguy with interesting anecdotes about dave brubeck than you will, looking them up on my behalf.

That was my response to Paperdog's observation regarding the wealth amassed by "Take Five".

You are apparently are too uninformed or dull witted to contribute much to any conversation on these topics.

Knowing that it would not impress you, I haven't mentioned that I have compositions that would seem to have been considered sophisticated enough to be used in dozens of TV shows and Films.

You are apparently are too uninformed or dull witted to contribute much to any conversation on these topics.

vinny, i believe you underestimate him. are you implying he can't be BOTH uninformed AND dull witted? previous posts and discussions prove otherwise.

Knowing that it would not impress you, I haven't mentioned that I have compositions that would seem to have been considered sophisticated enough to be used in dozens of TV shows and Films.

that's impressive indeed....but equally so is the fact that actually you know what compression is and understand how it's used.

Appreciation for a varied array of forms does not constitute ambition. David Brubeck ambitiously amassed wealth off of one, maybe two songs ever...The commercial 'Take Five, and Rondala Turk...I think

not sure i get where you're coming from p-dog. are you implying that brubeck recorded these tunes because he was ambitiously seeking commercial success?

"Take Five" was written by Paul Desmond the alto saxophonist in his band. I seriously doubt commercial success was a driving force in anything the Quartet did. i mean.....these guys were some seriously smart brainiacs who wouldn't be thinking "hey, i know.... let's record a jazz tune in 5/4 because it's destined to be a huge hit!" same deal w "Blue Rondo A La Turk"....not exactly commercial fare that anyone think "oh, great! we've got a sure fire hit on our hands"

I've not read it or ever seen a copy but paul desmond wrote a book about life on the road w The Dave Brubeck Quartet. i've always loved the title..."How Many Are In The Quartet?"

I must confess I assumed the effort of recording was prolly more than just vain self satisfaction of victrola partying
My point being (ANd thnaks for the correction on the authorship of the Take Five song) Take Five had commercial appeal and I'm certain the quartet's agents saw that well before the final recording came out.

Appreciation for a varied array of forms does not constitute ambition. David Brubeck ambitiously amassed wealth off of one, maybe two songs ever...The commercial 'Take Five, and Rondala Turk...I think

not sure i get where you're coming from p-dog. are you implying that brubeck recorded these tunes because he was ambitiously seeking commercial success?

"Take Five" was written by Paul Desmond the alto saxophonist in his band. I seriously doubt commercial success was a driving force in anything the Quartet did. i mean.....these guys were some seriously smart brainiacs who wouldn't be thinking "hey, i know.... let's record a jazz tune in 5/4 because it's destined to be a huge hit!" same deal w "Blue Rondo A La Turk"....not exactly commercial fare that anyone think "oh, great! we've got a sure fire hit on our hands"

I've not read it or ever seen a copy but paul desmond wrote a book about life on the road w The Dave Brubeck Quartet. i've always loved the title..."How Many Are In The Quartet?"

I must confess I assumed the effort of recording was prolly more than just vain self satisfaction of victrola partying
My point being (ANd thnaks for the correction on the authorship of the Take Five song) Take Five had commercial appeal and I'm certain the quartet's agents saw that well before the final recording came out.

"Take Five had commercial appeal and I'm certain the quartet's agents saw that well before the final recording came out."

i really doubt ANYONE saw any commercial appeal to Take Five. i've read accounts from both brubeck and desmond who both claim to have been mystified at the success and popularity of "Take Five". think about it....a jazz tune from from 1959 in 5/4 time w an extended drum solo!!!

yeah....PURRRFECT recipe for sure fire jukebox hit!

my take on brubeck and desmond...they were musician's musicians. did they want to make a buck and have their stuff heard and appreciated? no doubt. was it their modus aperendi and their main goal when they were writing, recording, performing......no way, jose.

As someone who plays free form jazz and fusion jazz just about every week with a group of guys (4) that I have played with for 15 yrs. I have to say that to do free form well, everyone has to listen to the musical conversation, understand the conversation and the direct the conversation is going. He has to know his instrument very well and has to hear (in his mind and to his fingers) where the harmony is and how far the next interval is from where he is.

It's kinda hard to explain. Because we have played so long together we can anticipate where the music is likely to go and we palyed a lot of free form together ... it's rare for us to crash and burn. I't even easier if I'm kickin bass and comping on the hammond with just drums and a solo instrument like sax or guitar because obviously, I know where I'm going and I'm playing 2 of the foundation parts the solo instr't is just fluff.

As far as everyone playing in the same KEY ... as long as it works harmonically ... I rarely think about what Key I'm in because I'm playing no roots, no thirds, and looking for an edgy hamony, to play off the bass line.

Fusion is less improvised and more structured as Planetguy said ... section A, section B, head, turn around ..etc, with improv within a section or 2

Vinny, the whole "conversation" vibe is really accurate for me, and I've used that metaphor in liner notes for this. When I first started playing with Tom, I heard what he was doing, but now I know what he might say before he says it, and it creates a more solid and meaningful conversation for me. I can instantly tell when he is in the zone and when he is trying to find a path to take.

The thing about Coleman's music that is displeasing for me is that, as a conversation it tends to sound like everybody is shouting at each other in discordant, disjointed words and sentences. I wonder how it can be pleasing for people to listen to, from an emotional point of view.

Being honest, everything we play is not totally satisfying to my ears, but overall I understand what is being said, and enjoy the conversation.

When you converse with someone a lot, you will get familiar with their favorite expressions and turns of phrase. After awhile maybe even develop new meanings between you for certain words, or even develop news words ... or new language idioms.

Ornette has been developing his idiom for a long time. He seems to be more accessible for many folks compared to, say, Cecil Taylor's abstract intensity.

John Coltrane's post quartet stuff gets way out there ... but who would question Coltrane's musicianship? Anthony Braxton is another stellar musician, improviser and composer who can be difficult to "get"

Sun Ra's band could pull off very credible 1930's Fletcher Henderson style arrangements ... and then take it out to total cosmic chaos.

Music has a long and deep heritage. Some of it is to entertain people in bars and pubs to accompany their good times. Science, religion, art and music were once upon a time components of a more unified investigation of our being in the universe. Some science strives to make a better toothpaste, some seek to identify the "God" particle. There is also an exploratory spirit that still moves through music.

[quote="Planetguy"

i really doubt ANYONE saw any commercial appeal to Take Five. i've read accounts from both brubeck and desmond who both claim to have been mystified at the success and popularity of "Take Five". think about it....a jazz tune from from 1959 in 5/4 time w an extended drum solo!!!

my take on brubeck and desmond...they were musician's musicians. did they want to make a buck and have their stuff heard and appreciated? no doubt. was it their modus aperendi and their main goal when they were writing, recording, performing......no way, jose.[/quote]

All I know is that when I was a bitty kid, I would occasionally go to the nursury school with Take Five looping in my head

BTW I now figured out why I'm not comfortable with free form...It sall good, I just have a need to bear out a point to whatever message I try to express... Free form, based on how its been described, would tend to have no particular direction in the musical conversation... thus no 'point'. But I don view that as bad... I just call it a good , solid jam session with friends.

"Den he cain't git no situation. What he gwyne to do?"

"Well, I don't know. Some of them gets on the police, and some of them learns people how to talk French."

"Why, Huck, doan' de French people talk de same way we does?"

"NO, Jim; you couldn't understand a word they said -- not a single word."

"Well, now, I be ding-busted! How do dat come?"

"I don't know; but it's so. I got some of their jabber out of a book. S'pose a man was to come to you and say Polly-voo-franzy -- what would you think?"

"I wouldn' think nuff'n; I'd take en bust him over de head -- dat is, if he warn't white. I wouldn't 'low no n----r to call me dat."

"Shucks, it ain't calling you anything. It's only saying, do you know how to talk French?"

"Well, den, why couldn't he SAY it?"

"Why, he IS a-saying it. That's a Frenchman's WAY of saying it."

"Well, it's a blame ridicklous way, en I doan' want to hear no mo' 'bout it. Dey ain' no sense in it."

"Looky here, Jim; does a cat talk like we do?"

"No, a cat don't."

"Well, does a cow?"

"No, a cow don't, nuther."

"Does a cat talk like a cow, or a cow talk like a cat?"

"No, dey don't."

"It's natural and right for 'em to talk different from each other, ain't it?"

"Course."

"And ain't it natural and right for a cat and a cow to talk different from US?"

"Why, mos' sholy it is."

"Well, then, why ain't it natural and right for a FRENCHMAN to talk different from us? You answer me that."

"Is a cat a man, Huck?"

"No."

"Well, den, dey ain't no sense in a cat talkin' like a man. Is a cow a man? -- er is a cow a cat?"

"No, she ain't either of them."

"Well, den, she ain't got no business to talk like either one er the yuther of 'em. Is a Frenchman a man?"

"Yes."

"WELL, den! Dad blame it, why doan' he TALK like a man? You answer me DAT!"

I see it warn't no use wasting words -- you can't learn a n----r to argue. So I quit.

-------
... from The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

by Mark Twain
a.k.a. Samuel Clemens
(1835-1910)

I've heard various versions of Sun Ra's bands. I'm a little too mentally structured, I guess, to follow that stuff for very long, alhough I have heard some that sounded pretty "big bandish," in a cosmic sort of way.

Ha. I hear people in Virginia, Tennessee, Georgia, Texas, Arkansas talk and I can hardly understand a word they say.

Music IS after all, a style, a method of communication. If it doesn't speak to us its value as a communication device is lessened for us, no matter how good it is from a musical standpoint, or the musicians involved.

The same can be said for individual musicians, too, yes? Some speak to their counterparts. Others do not. Some feel they are great, others, not so much. We might admit to their ability, but the language just doesn't "speak" to us.