General Chat (Non-Music-Related)

You prolly not wrong.... But one thing that is indisputable...9/11. And punishment to Middle East nations came down like the "portfolio effect" (one stock goes down, many others are subject as well)
We could split hairs, but at the end of the day, 9/11 was not a good day to be a muslum, anywhere in the world.

It was not a good day for any civilian, anywhere in the world.

It was a good day however, for several governments and industries because it gave them the green light to do things that were unthinkable prior to 9-11, ignoring common sense, historical references, and the overall human and financial costs. Almost all of it in the name of creating more personal wealth, and the 1%.

You prolly not wrong.... But one thing that is indisputable...9/11. And punishment to Middle East nations came down like the "portfolio effect" (one stock goes down, many others are subject as well)
We could split hairs, but at the end of the day, 9/11 was not a good day to be a muslum, anywhere in the world.

It was not a good day for any civilian, anywhere in the world.

It was a good day however, for several governments and industries because it gave them the green light to do things that were unthinkable prior to 9-11, ignoring common sense, historical references, and the overall human and financial costs. Almost all of it in the name of creating more personal wealth, and the 1%.

True again, But ask yourself this...Why did members in one particular region of the world Decide that it was okay to launch a deliberate attack on a country in another region of the world? For all our greed, we were always willing to let other sin on some of the pie...That's what we do..

Greed drives war, while real solution gets by passed over
The muslum hatred for any civilization , which chooses to NOT exercise their brand barbarian practices, is so profound, that they thought nothing about foreseeable reaction toward their brand of barbarism.

We are criticizing "our own" brand of barbarism, when we protest our involvement in war.

How easy it really is for the US to vote on, and execute a parking lot project on the middle east. But, Given our strength and capability, I'd say we exercised extraordinary constraint.

As far as I am concerned, on one hand, the Middle east developed amazing disciplines (i,e Mathematics) and for all that, they still live and practice barbarism? Again, what have we done that was so horrific, that they should pull off a 9/11?

I detest Islamic tenets. They are false peace. The culture is inundated with hateful , empty , un spiritual dogma... and they use that dogma to justify death rather than embrace life..

I think you largely ignored my statements about why some of them hate us.

Let's start in 1953.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Irani ... 7%C3%A9tat

Then pretty much everything we've done since in that entire region of the world.

Imagine a company forcing it's workers into wages so low that the majority of people are basically slaves, living in poverty- poor, hungry, weak, and increasingly angry. Crime goes up. Punish those filthy criminals to the furthest extent of the law, or make changes that will bring most of them out of poverty? It seems our general policy in this country is to punish people, and if they complain, punish them even harder.

...I feel that the real Portfolio Effect was the blood stained profit that a select few with prior knowledge of 9/11 made having "prepared". This shows that the motivation behind The Great Sacrifice aside from the now obvious occult ones was profit and the destruction of the USA and it's Freedoms, Constitution, Middle-class, Educational System, Health, Economy, Religious Tolerance and seperation from State and most importantly it's FUTURE.

Obama "Lie Speak" was blown away by Assange's Statement at the Embassy. The applause at the UN for the Abbas Speech was not as loud as that for Netanyahu but it was not paid for either. It seems that both Israel and The United States have "leaders" who are the worst kind of puppets ...the ego/unbalanced puppet reminiscent of Nero and Caligula. This makes for a very dangerous situation that is almost equal to Fukushima.

TRhe Internet has enlightened virtually everyone in some way and stimulated thought which otherwise would have stagnated. The "established Manipulators" do not like this at all. They are Evil and now fearful of their "livestock". All it takes is for enough people in each country to organize the others and disinfect themselves from the political filth and banker/corporate scum ...the pathetic minorities that rule the planet. People all over are becoming slowly aware and as a consequence the parasites are becoming more fearful and desperate. Mankind is an ignorant slumbering giant that is now stirring, learning and waking up to it's manipulation and imminent extinction. It is just the questions of how quickly ... will it be quick enough ...will the parasites attempt to destroy the world and mankind ...will they succeed ?

The Truth remains despite any of the above and the Truth is what will save Humanity not some political filth, not some war, not censorship and lies ... not Homeland Security ... or the TSA ...just awakening to the TRUTH and percieving the LIES.

Ta LIve Well Die Well

I think you largely ignored my statements about why some of them hate us.

Let's start in 1953.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Irani ... 7%C3%A9tat

Then pretty much everything we've done since in that entire region of the world.

Imagine a company forcing it's workers into wages so low that the majority of people are basically slaves, living in poverty- poor, hungry, weak, and increasingly angry. Crime goes up. Punish those filthy criminals to the furthest extent of the law, or make changes that will bring most of them out of poverty? It seems our general policy in this country is to punish people, and if they complain, punish them even harder.

And their religion which demands that true followers kill all those who do not accept their religion has little to do with it? Hmmmmm. Some of us know that all disputes between men are spiritually orchestrated.

well fundamentalism is a plague on all religions with exception to maybe buddhism. History tells us that our own christian religion has some pretty dark periods of doing exactly what you state above.

Most religious people aren't fundamentalists, and while I hear these accusations repeated constantly, I've failed to find any real significance to the statements. I did take a moment to ask google "does islam teach violence", and found this Islamic site that breaks down the conversation quite well.

http://www.islamicwritings.org/quran/pe ... -violence/

So tell me- Have you read the Quran and these "violent" teachings for yourself, and in context, or are you just repeating what someone else said or typed on the internet? If you have read them and believe them to teach hatred and violence, I'd honestly like to know what they are and would appreciate a link to something - not something that takes single sentences, translated and potentially out of context, but a whole passage that you feel tells people to hate and kill anyone not of their faith, or that promotes violence in any context other than exercising fair justice.

I think you largely ignored my statements about why some of them hate us.

Let's start in 1953.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Irani ... 7%C3%A9tat

Then pretty much everything we've done since in that entire region of the world.

Imagine a company forcing it's workers into wages so low that the majority of people are basically slaves, living in poverty- poor, hungry, weak, and increasingly angry. Crime goes up. Punish those filthy criminals to the furthest extent of the law, or make changes that will bring most of them out of poverty? It seems our general policy in this country is to punish people, and if they complain, punish them even harder.

Kramer, were stuck on the petty details, bro... I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying there's a bigger picture...

You can point out any and every event in history that you want to, but in the end, all of that sh*t has its roots from a mindset, which celebrates destruction and death.

Here is a succinct characterization of Muhammad. http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/history/prophet.htm
If you decide to read this, please tell me what stands out (Hint: Do the Meccans prevail today? )

...Slacker G ... Kramerguy ... PaperDog ... Yod ... and any other ...

We are discussing what arguably can be one of the most hotly debated subjects in the entire world. It has always been in the "Top Ten" but has a spercial relevance at this moment in time. Yod is going to be there and we are all fortunate that should he continue to communicate when he is ..... this will give us a perspective that most do not have. This will be true regardless if we agree or not with his personal opinions.

I offer my thanks and compliments to you all as simply because of your sophistication this subject has not degenerated into an insult party of ego. Let us continue to debate, state, disagree, agree and demonstrate that this is in fact possible in light of everything. I respect all of you very much and entreat you to remain true to yourselves in disagreement and debate.

This is a unique and entirely unexpected opportunity for us all and any others who wish to "participate". None of us have a full and complete understanding of this _______ mess. Let us learn some things from one another and show the essence of what human is ... the good not the evil. I thank you all for your Posts and welcome more.

Ta Live Well Die Well

I think you largely ignored my statements about why some of them hate us.

Let's start in 1953.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Irani ... 7%C3%A9tat

Then pretty much everything we've done since in that entire region of the world.

Imagine a company forcing it's workers into wages so low that the majority of people are basically slaves, living in poverty- poor, hungry, weak, and increasingly angry. Crime goes up. Punish those filthy criminals to the furthest extent of the law, or make changes that will bring most of them out of poverty? It seems our general policy in this country is to punish people, and if they complain, punish them even harder.

Kramer, were stuck on the petty details, bro... I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying there's a bigger picture...

You can point out any and every event in history that you want to, but in the end, all of that sh*t has its roots from a mindset, which celebrates destruction and death.

Here is a succinct characterization of Muhammad. http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/history/prophet.htm
If you decide to read this, please tell me what stands out (Hint: Do the Meccans prevail today? )

Hey I did take the time and read it carefully. I really don't see the foundations of hatred and violence in it. In fact, it looks to be just like the formulas of hundreds of societies and religions throughout history. War and bloodshed was SOP back in those days, and religious persecution was as well. It looks as if Muhammad promoted peace and unity more than violence and hatred. Sure Islam went on the offensive, but that was after being persecuted for their beliefs. At least that's how I read it. Again, I don't see anything on that page or in the section about Mecca that links islam to fundamentalism, violence, or hatred of today.

What the heck are you guys discussing?

What the heck are you guys discussing?

flavor of the day- Muslim (islam) hatred and violence. Truth or fiction? You decide

I think you largely ignored my statements about why some of them hate us.

Let's start in 1953.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Irani ... 7%C3%A9tat

Then pretty much everything we've done since in that entire region of the world.

Imagine a company forcing it's workers into wages so low that the majority of people are basically slaves, living in poverty- poor, hungry, weak, and increasingly angry. Crime goes up. Punish those filthy criminals to the furthest extent of the law, or make changes that will bring most of them out of poverty? It seems our general policy in this country is to punish people, and if they complain, punish them even harder.

Kramer, were stuck on the petty details, bro... I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying there's a bigger picture...

You can point out any and every event in history that you want to, but in the end, all of that sh*t has its roots from a mindset, which celebrates destruction and death.

Here is a succinct characterization of Muhammad. http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/history/prophet.htm
If you decide to read this, please tell me what stands out (Hint: Do the Meccans prevail today? )

Hey I did take the time and read it carefully. I really don't see the foundations of hatred and violence in it. In fact, it looks to be just like the formulas of hundreds of societies and religions throughout history. War and bloodshed was SOP back in those days, and religious persecution was as well. It looks as if Muhammad promoted peace and unity more than violence and hatred. Sure Islam went on the offensive, but that was after being persecuted for their beliefs. At least that's how I read it. Again, I don't see anything on that page or in the section about Mecca that links islam to fundamentalism, violence, or hatred of today.

You said: "Sure Islam went on the offensive, but that was after being persecuted for their beliefs."

Bingo! Now tell me how Christians are any more "Wrong" in their retaliation for 9/11

You said: "Sure Islam went on the offensive, but that was after being persecuted for their beliefs."

Bingo! Now tell me how Christians are any more "Wrong" in their retaliation for 9/11

in 600 AD, things were a bit different, for starters.

But really.. 9-11 being a religious attack on Christianity?? You are suggesting that angry muslims decided that of ALL the places to attack for their religious beliefs, that they would settle on one of the most religiously diverse and free countries on the planet??

Considering that it was al-queda ala bin laden that attacked, ask why-

Here's a good reason, from the horses mouth:

March 1997:
In an interview with CNN he says, "We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical…”


Read more: Why did Osama bin Laden hate Americans, Jews and Christians? | Washington Times Communities
Follow us: @wtcommunities on Twitter

Sure, he also hates christians, and jews, so your arguments aren't totally wrong, but the fact is that he focused on the us because of our intervention (and other interviews he does spell that out too), otherwise he would have focused on Italy and England for his 'wars'.

I think we got on the wrong path- my point wasn't about 9-11 specifically. Using it as an example (and bin laden for that matter), only shows the extremist ideology and fundamentalism that I also wrote about- Almost every religion has a damning history of non-tolerance for other religions, especially when the extremists gain hold of the controls.

Muslims in general don't hate other religions, and all of their regular websites state that clearly, if you can manage to exclude the extremist ones. If you look at our christian bible you can find equally as much violence and charter to start fanaticising about wiping out non-believers as any other religion.

There is a lot of hatred towards america these days, not just from muslims, but many south american countries as well. In fact, you will find anti-american sentiment across the globe.

A lot of people want to paint it as jealousy or religion, but the simple fact is that everywhere you find a people who "hate america", you will also find that the USA has a damning history in that location of intervention, installing dictators, crushing economies, and killing innocent people.

I'm frankly embarrassed by our foreign policy over the last 75 years and want nothing more than to elect a president and congress that values logic, reason, and compassion over the current ones who only value profit, greed, cronyism, and conflict.

...PaperDog and KramerGuy ... and Etu ...Excellent discussion and questions demonstrating that one can in fact speak of hatred without practicing it.

Religions ... regardless of possible original intentions, they are now absolute tools of manipulation and control which are very effective regardless of IQ, education level, life experience, geographic location, ancestry, etc. in their far reaching influences.

Religions ...despite those who actually the Noble and Spiritual tenants of whichever religion -they have chosen... despite all these collective good works... have consistently proven themselves to be directed by depraved individuals and the scheming greedy policies of control and manipulation.

Murder, rape, persecution, theft, torture , extermination and exploitation from the world's religions have touched virtually everyone and their ancestors. Now after all this and it's continuation for centuries ... still there are those who bicker about which "Team", which "Political Party", and which "Religion" they support. They do so purely upon a speculative basis and not knowing the often hidden Truths behind the manipulations and being not privy to any of the actual planning ... ever. Any debate on these matters consists only of personal opinions, feelings and knowledge at best. At worst these consist of brainwashed, unthinking and illogical manipulations (beliefs) which are readily swallowed.

Of course what anyone may think or believe is absolutely relevant on the other hand, if only due to it's associations and influences upon one's life ...terrifyingly similiar to the relationship of a parasite and it's chosen host. I merely relate this in an objective way as to quote Yod "I do not have a dog in the fight".

There are many obviously very intelligent and sensitive Artist/Musicians here ... all exceptional when contrasted to the average dumb-downed and poisoned waddling zombie-like masses, who believe everything they are told to.

It is becoming increasingly more and more difficult for anyone to interface their personal beliefs and spiritualities with the "events" being "performed" throughout the world at the moment. Just being able to discuss any of this intelligently and without insult or ego is a challenge which most can not meet ... even here on this Forum.

Perhaps this is what is at first so puzzling to you Etu. You usually swoop in and in a simple statement put things in perspective and order for most. Your gift in this respect is very admirable as is Slacker G's. Kramer and PaperDog are are different in that they engage on levels most do not. They rise above most to this extent and the determination they practice. All of you would be an asset around a fire and in "Council".

PaperDog ... regarding Christians being "wrong in their retaliation" ... there are countless passages to be found in any of the many bibles Christians say they live by...which clearly state that such retaliations are considered "Evil". Such is the nature of religion I fear. It seems that if Muslims all were really bent upon destroying Christians that "The Crusades" would have occured in the opposite direction ?

There are so many Muslims in this world now that they present a formidable force to be reckoned with especially if they were in fact determined to destroy all Christians. Kramer is correct in that "almost every religion has a damning history of non-tolerance for other religions".

"Extremists" do have control I believe and I would like to think most ... of any religion believe this.

As a True Poet Warrior PaperDog... you have a most interesting perspective compared to most. I have always found this to be very fascinating. You generally control your ego better than most and that is also admirable.

I think that almost everyone is in agreement that the United States justly "deserves" and has "earned" any hatreds from other countries it has "played" with...excepting the blind Nationalists. The same might be applied to Israel now ? Purely the number of military bases the US has around the world demonstrates this as well as the sordid activities it performs and the hidden purpose it now proudly proclaims to the faces of the dying. It's history compares easily to that of the Catholic Church and Ancient Rome now.

The True Axis of Evil ... London ... Washington ...Rome, are in full view now for anyone to see. I salute you who dare to speak your thoughts so eloquently in this Age of Dying Words ... even if they be in opposition at times ... you are all Honourable and deserve mutual respect as well as that of others.

Death is all around us now and this is nothing to what lurks in the wings, waiting to be fully implemented making this a Charnel Planet.

Ta Live Well Die Well