General Music Chat

Freedom is more of an ideal, a goal to reach for, not necessarily to achieve totally. I have a mortgage, and must get up every day at 6:00am and work all day to pay it, along with a ton of other bills. I have vices and baggage like everyone. But to be free of debt, worry, disease, crime, war, prejudice and hate - those are freedoms worth striving for and, if required, fighting for.

So its basically an unattainable ideal. I dont know if I would call it a lie, that seems a little bit extreme to me Keith.

Thats my take on it anyway.

We all owe someone or something, we all got to serve somebody or something.

John, I was just being the devil's advocate for the sake of the discussion. I think Jimmy got it right that it's more of an ideal, something to strive for, but I guess my roundabout point was that "freedom" as it's touted by 'mericans today seems to reek of hypocrisy as it equates to blind loyalty and indentured servitude by choice.

Freedom is more of an ideal, a goal to reach for, not necessarily to achieve totally. I have a mortgage, and must get up every day at 6:00am and work all day to pay it, along with a ton of other bills. I have vices and baggage like everyone. But to be free of debt, worry, disease, crime, war, prejudice and hate - those are freedoms worth striving for and, if required, fighting for.

Really? You are describing the phony utopia that this Marxist regime leader has been feeding to you. freedom is being able to go into debt, freedom is having a job to pay off your debts, freedom is being allowed to be prejudice, freedom is being allowed to hate. You will NEVER see that fantasy world that you have bought into since it is a pipe dream. Freedom is believing in an all powerful God who can allow you to rise above the derogatory things you mentioned. There will always be those who hate you. There will always be people who want to take advantage of others. There will always be a need to work and to pay bills. There is no something for nothing. You live in a fantasy world.

Something worth fighting for? < (Never end a sentence with a preposition) Yet you are going to vote for a proven Marxist who wants to change America into a country in bondage to big dictatorial government. You say you love America but are willing to sell out freedom and all that America stands for simply because you won't get your way in the voting booth. You are willing to sell your brothers freedom, your children's freedom and their future just because your proffered candidate didn't win the primary. How stupid is that? You're going to teach them a lesson by voting for a dictator (A proven dictator who rules lawlessly already!) It must be hard being you.

To claim to love America and yet vote for those who wish to destroy it is sheer hypocrisy. I do not like Romney in the least. He is a progressive. (A progressive is a Communist leaning politician, as you well know) yet it is better to vote for a progressive who has not shown how he shall rule as opposed to a politician who has already shown that he is intent on destroying the American way of life.

Freedom is more of an ideal, a goal to reach for, not necessarily to achieve totally. I have a mortgage, and must get up every day at 6:00am and work all day to pay it, along with a ton of other bills. I have vices and baggage like everyone. But to be free of debt, worry, disease, crime, war, prejudice and hate - those are freedoms worth striving for and, if required, fighting for.

Really? You are describing the phony utopia that this Marxist regime leader has been feeding to you. freedom is being able to go into debt, freedom is having a job to pay off your debts, freedom is being allowed to be prejudice, freedom is being allowed to hate. You will NEVER see that fantasy world that you have bought into since it is a pipe dream. Freedom is believing in an all powerful God who can allow you to rise above the derogatory things you mentioned. There will always be those who hate you. There will always be people who want to take advantage of others. There will always be a need to work and to pay bills. There is no something for nothing. You live in a fantasy world.

Something worth fighting for? < (Never end a sentence with a preposition) Yet you are going to vote for a proven Marxist who wants to change America into a country in bondage to big dictatorial government. You say you love America but are willing to sell out freedom and all that America stands for simply because you won't get your way in the voting booth. You are willing to sell your brothers freedom, your children's freedom and their future just because your proffered candidate didn't win the primary. How stupid is that? You're going to teach them a lesson by voting for a dictator (A proven dictator who rules lawlessly already!) It must be hard being you.

To claim to love America and yet vote for those who wish to destroy it is sheer hypocrisy. I do not like Romney in the least. He is a progressive. (A progressive is a Communist leaning politician, as you well know) yet it is better to vote for a progressive who has not shown how he shall rule as opposed to a politician who has already shown that he is intent on destroying the American way of life.

Whoa slacker... how did you come to all those conclusions from what jimmy said in one short paragraph??

The answer is simple Kramer


By having a modicum of discernment with an informed view of world history, Slacker has hit the nail on it's ignorant naive head.

Jimmy has only repeated a wish for every pipe-dream lie told by Lenin, Mao, and Obama. Their definitions of "hope" & "change" are not what the lemmings think they are. I'm amazed that there are still people stupid enough to think this current administration wants to help them. Stalin called them "useful idiots"


Real freedom is based on the responsibility of every individual to take care of themselves. It is opportunity, not a hand out nor a guarantee.

It requires a moral backbone and a little sweat. Something half of America has been conditioned to reject. The other half of us are not going to pay the bills for them very much longer.










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...FREEDOM is very real ...not an ideal ... but something you can steal... even a dyed in the wool uninformed materialistic pi can recognize that I feel. Many have lost their moral compass and as such know deep within that they are drifting and so desperatly try to justify this drift instead of reaching out to others and into themselves and declaring help I am lost and drifting. There are so many aspects of that simple little two syllable word.

Slacker you are an inspiration and your fire is True and powerful. Yod you are what you are and it is truly a most noble thing and something that should be recognized by everyone even your enemies.

The debates here are very good and all who are participating do so with a degree of elegance, feeling and violence at times ... all of which make it fascinating, appealing and irresistable. You are all fantastic, each and everyone because you are varied and humanistic and caring in your own distinct ways and moving generally in the same direction which could be percieved as good and not evil.

Ta Live Well Die Well

Yod-
Sounds more like libertarianism than freedom-

"Every man for himself"
"I got mine, screw you"
"sucks to be you"

I believe, much like the sentiment of the OP's point, that while poverty is well over 40% today, most of these people DO work hard. In fact, I'd argue that most of them work much harder than their wealthy counterparts. I see a lot of view like yours - that they are freeloaders, cancers on society, etc.. but the reality of it is that most of them are not. Yes, there are some.. and they enrage me as much as anyone else. Who wouldn't be pissed when you are stuck behind someone wearing clothes worth $100's, a gucci handbag, a fur coat, buying $300 worth of potato chips and t-bone steaks with their government assistance card.. hell, I want to t-bone their damn brand-new SUV out in the parking lot myself.

But I understand these are not the poster-children of welfare, but the exception. I don't believe you see it that way, and you do have the freedom to see it how you want, but what jimmy believes is past the lies and hoaxes of the figureheads. We almost achieved prosperity for all once, and the only reason I see that we lost what we had (middle class) was because of poor policy changes, especially in regards to our vampiric economy that absolutely allows wealth to take advantage of the poor and middle classes, making it that much harder to pull oneself out of poverty. For many, it's become outright impossible.

"

Real freedom is based on the responsibility of every individual to take care of themselves. It is opportunity, not a hand out nor a guarantee.

"It requires a moral backbone and a little sweat. Something half of America has been conditioned to reject. The other half of us are not going to pay the bills for them very much longer. "

"FREEDOM is very real ...not an ideal ... but something you can steal... even a dyed in the wool uninformed materialistic pi can recognize that I feel. Many have lost their moral compass and as such know deep within that they are drifting and so desperatly try to justify this drift instead of reaching out to others and into themselves and declaring help I am lost and drifting. There are so many aspects of that simple little two syllable word."

Both of these posts are inspiring and so very accurate.

Freedom:

I wish I could be truly free of taxes... In my mind, I try to be... But my mind cant ignore the agents pounding on my door...

...I thank you Slacker for your kind words. Kramer...Braveheart is one of those interestingly enough rare films that some consider a masterpiece and others call trite. If one is lucky one can feel classified in the same manner from time to time. Excellent choice of pic for a Post I believe. We Scots are suckers for Braveheart and there is an odd quality found in Road Warrior, BraveHeart and The Passion I believe ... Mel Gibson is the reason and his ability in those cases to be free to express himself and have the freedom to do so can be said to either have established him or thrust him broken into obsurity dependent upon which side of the monetary fence or counter you reside ... I believe. Vinny's Post from wikipedia was excellent in defining this I believe.

PaperDog... it is good to read your Posts and perspectives as they all add depth and variaty and often sprinkle Truth and Humour like a light rain in the autumn skies denoting the coming winter.

The nights are just a bit cooler now and we just weathered a three day/night sandstorm will heavy rain thrown in for three hour or so in the wee hours of the mornings. Rain smells much better than napalm in the morning.

Ta Live Well Die Well

To me freedom would be a situation where you dont owe anyone else anything, be it money or whatever.

In other words liquidity. Which is very difficult to achieve in this society. Everybody wants more. As the human population expands things are getting scarcer. It's a smple matter of supply and demand. It takes greater effort to bring goods and services to market affordably.
We are on the cusp of creating more for less. There's more choices for renewable energy for example. BUT these choices all come with a price. We would have figured after many DECADES that auto manufacturers would have come out with a vehicle that runs on electricity or solar WITH a performance level that satisfies enough consumers that mass production would make these new vehicles afforrdable. It hasn't happened for a reason. The reason is GREED. Everything associated with the auto industry is based on testicular control. Industries that have us by the balls WON'T LET GO. There will NOT be anything resembling personal freedom, thus liquidity, until there is a fundamental change in the entirety of how our civilization runs. Those in control, both in the private sector, and those in government, have to fundamentally change the way they look at power. I don't know the best way to effect the changes needed to get us to the point where personal freedom increases, where we have the liquidity needed to leave a stress-free life. I'm not talking about financial freedom either. Getting back to the initial post in this thread, this is a huge, complicated topic. What represents freedom to you is completely different from anybody else.

it is ridiculous to propose that freedom is arbitrary, and different things to different people.

that's plain absurdity.

" the king is a man like any other, the rose smells to him as it dose to me."

We have created an entitelist mindset and with it a generation of
young Americans that are empty. Empty of ethics, morals, determination
and motivation. Every day I see young people that cant make change.
They cant pay attention to anything or get their heads out of the
mesmerizing phone. They have no respect for anything or anyone.
They throw trash out the windows of their cars and spit everywhere
at anytime. They cut in front of you in traffic and have the table
manners of Conan The Barbarian. Screw everyone, its all about me!

Maybe its the area I work in or region. Its not all of them but a lot.
I am in contact with a lot of people daily that have a lot of money.
They raise kids that are fuukin worthless. They feel they are
entitled and get what they want. Entitlement can be evil and America
needs to learn how to say NO!

No, we wont pay you more because you had more babies.
No, we wont bale you out because you failed miserably.
No, we wont reduce your sentence because the prison is full.
No, we wont put you on SSI because your elbow hurts.
and so on and so on and so on

Just Sayin.

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