General Music Chat

All of this copyright, ownership stuff is heavy I try to steer clear of it, but it's right on my doorstep and I guess I need 2 deal with it. Right now I write the majority of the songs in my band (we are based in UK) and compose everything except majority of bass lines - the bass player has an awesome touch. I pass the vocals to the singer and the drum patterns to the drummer (I play keys & percussion & sing the odd 'ooh'). Now the drummer wants us all to setup an agreement and I agree that some kind of agreement should be in place. But aside from performing royalties what do these musicians have rights to. Can they claim an equal share on the song? Where do I start? What if the drummer or bass player wrote a pattern/bass line, left the band and the band continued to perform the song but with a different drum pattern or bass line? Does anyone have a basic understanding of how this works without giving me a link to musicians union? I like to do my homework to protect the work i put in, but also want others to feel comfortable. Any ideas anyone?

i'm honestly not sure how a "copywrite" would work within a band.

when it comes to royalties, though, i believe all members of the band should receive an equal share, despite the possibility that one person may write the lyrics or music to 2 instruments. a band needs everyone to work together for the music to work, so i believe everyone who spends their time and effort with the band (regardless of if they play their own guitar riffs or someone elses) should get an equal cut.

in terms of if members leave the band - i believe that once you write a song, its no longer your individual song, its the band's song. so if the bassist leaves the band, they should be ok with the band still using the bassline.
if the entire band splits up, though, i dont believe any ex-member is entitled to find new members and play the old band's songs. the only exception would be someone who wrote the lyrics and guitar to a particular song playing it on an acoustic song.

those are just personal views, though. nothing set in stone.

you can't really copywrite the music itself, generally speaking. you can try to copywrite the melody and chords but even that is difficult to prove in court. you can copywrite the performance tho. wich means each player has their own right to their performance recordings(even if it's part of your recording or on your equipment or at your expense). the lyrics are the most copywriteable part... and I would say if your writing the chord/melody/lyrics with 0 help from anyone else... you should be the single owner on the song, and equal owner on the performance(assuming an equal part in the performance). This would mean any money from the recording curently existing, or playing out, should be equally distributed, but ultimately if the band splits you have the right to 'go away with' your song(s) and record them with others while none of the band members(assuming they didn't help write the lyrics melody and chords) would have the right to record/perform the piece. Copy cut and print this, tell em it's from an unbiast impartial listener and show them... that outta take the heat off it. copywrite all your songs thru library of congress b4 showing the band. good luck.

Thankyou both very much for your (scuse the pun) contribution. This is trully an eye-opener. Am i correct in saying that it does not matter how much of the song I write? The moment there is an additional contributor, the song is equally shared amongst the contributors? It may be better for me to write the whole song where warranted and allow the band to write as a whole for the remainder? I'm unsure that if we have a song owned by the band and a member leaves what happens there? E.g. "so if the bassist leaves the band, they should be ok with the band still using the bassline" - what does this mean and what if the bassist is not ok about the band using the bass line - can the song still be played without his permission? Sorry for all the questions - I don't have a clue (in case you were unaware )

not a lawyer here... but I would say this:
A. the lyrics carry the most weight. They can be copywrited and no one can make a song with the same lyrics.
B. the chords and vocal melody(or instrumental melody) can also be copywrited... but you can't copywrite an Achord and a Dchord. Anybody can right songs with these two chords... but -if someone writes a song with these two chords and a melody that is EXACTLY what you copywrited... You would still have to prove this exact match in court.
C. The recordings you make of the song are the property of each person that recorded the recording(sorry). The bass player really couldn't do much about you having someone else record his bass riffs... he'd have to prove that his bass line contributed significantly to the success of the song and that would be difficult at best. He does own his performance unless he signs away those rights. That would mean that if he left you couldn't sell copies of his work (recording)w/o his permission. If you edited him out of the recording and had another bass player play the same riff... I doubt he'd be able to do anything about it... unless he had some other contract with you. The song could def be performed or re-recorded with another bass player just playing his own lines. You could sel those recording with absolutely no fear of him sueing you. The reality is that most of the musical lawsuit cases don't get far cause you almost have to steal someones recording and use it and sell it to get burned in court.
D. If you have ppul contributing to the lyrics... they both have ownership. If one could prove that one contributed more to the song they might have a right to more of the proceeds from it... but that would probably be pretty difficult to prove.

MrMikeV - A very big thanks for the heads up. This is all interesting stuff. I have 1 final Q. What if the band have not made an official recording of a song yet? Do the same rules apply?

i think a lot of your questions have to do purely with what is right and fair, because im not sure the law goes in depth as to explaining how the song is dealt with if it was never recorded or legitimately copywrited.


by my comment about the bassist leaving and the band still using the bassline, i mean that, if you join a band, you should understand that the music you write (while you still should get credit) is "forfeited" over to the band as a whole. a band should work together - so when you start thinking of the song as completely different parts, you reach a problem. while the song is made up of parts, it is how these parts work together to form the song, so i dont think 1 member leaving a band means the whole song should be thrown out. its the bands song, and the instrument is part o the song and shouldnt leave.

You bring up a good point g... right and wrong are two very different things when viewed legally and moraly. I think legally, if ther's no recording... there's nothing that binds the bassist to your song - cause your song still exists with out that bassline. His bassline still exists and he could use it to different lyrics and vocals... you don't own that. You own your parts... "parts is parts" -remember that one? If you wrote the lyrics... then you own the lyrics. the band owns the performance only. course none of ya own nothing till ya copywrite it, cause w/o that you don't have a leg to stand on(please excuse that remark if you actually don't have a leg to stand on physically).
anywho,

I'm lucky enought to stand on 2...
Thankyou both for your valuable help and all the best for the future

Jamba

Bump.
This subject came up recently, so here's the thread, again . . .

hey bro, you wrote the main song, anything else is just added to the recipe, thats why songwriters or those who can create a song are exzactly what they are, just tell them your copyright your sound and riffs and vocals, hey, let them add to it, your the songwriter, my songs are mine and my bandmates are welcome to make it better, look at all the greats where credit is due, not everyone sticks their hands in, its your stuff, people get nervous, they know the song is good and before it may hit or something, they want in, thats the way it is.

Here's the way I deal with this. If you brought the idea to the table, then you are the legit author. You can give the others "arranging" credits, but the fact remains, if you never threw the song idea on the table then what would there be to work on.

Recently my bass player came up with this great "Guitar riff" - I loved it from the first note. He had to melody, lyrics or Chorus/Bridge section. So, I asked him If I could add those elements. In this case, the song becomes a collaboration between him and me. The other guitar player actually sings the song in my band due to his lower register, it sounds better, but he gets no songwriting credit.

So, long story short. The best way is to make it very clear - If you bring the idea to the table, it's your song, unless you need lyrics, melody help.

Yes, it can work that way. That is: it's all your song.
.
But - sometimes 1 + 1 = 3.
You might have a song than can be improved upon, with a different rhythm or chorus or bridge or something . . . .
You can keep your song as it is (and all yours), or share it to see if it can become better.
It all depends on your values, eh?
.
It can also depend upon how tight you are with your band-mates, and how willing you are to encourage suggestions and improvements from them.
.
. . . water the song, and watch it grow . . .
But -
If you are absolutely the better song-writer, or if you want the recognition - well, then: it's your song. And so it should be.
.
I'm just saying that there's no ONE way to handle this.
People are different. They have different personalities, and different abilities.
It'd probably be better if everyone in every band had this discussion amongst themselves at least once, right up front . . .

But aside from performing royalties what do these musicians have rights to.

That is what your agreement will determine.

Contractual agreements suck, but you want to get it out of the way now, so you don't have to have it looming as a distraction. When everyone has agreed to how things work, it will alleviate problems down the road, and you can then get on with the business of making music.

I told my previous band that we needed to work out some sort of agreement for the same reasons as mentioned above. I shared the most common types of agreements, provided some URL's for them to research these themselves, and asked them to think it all over, so we could discuss it at our next practice.

A few of my songs were not copyrighted from the past (through the Library of Congress - However a song is legally copyrighted at the moment of creation) so the lead guitarist decided that since we were a band now, and they were playing a few of songs I had written years before this band, and dug out of the closet to get, that they should have a share of that too. I disagreed, and explained that another band had played these same songs with me previously, and he had even borrowed some of their licks. Why should he get a piece of the publishing rights, when the band who first played these songs with me did not?

I further explained that I had written these songs 10 years before even meeting these guys, and that they were a piece of me. God forbid, what if this band broke up in a few months after this agreement, never having played out anywhere, and suddenly he would be part owner of something I had sweat and bled to create. Now I would have to lose ownership of this song for the rest of my life? And share royalties with him if
ANYONE ever recorded them?

I clarified that he would still be receiving royalties on performances through any CD's sold of the song, on which he played, he just wouldn't get the publishing royalties also, since I alone, wrote the lyrics and melodies to these songs 10 years earlier.

Luckily I didn't agree with his WRONG proposal, and hell if we didnt break up 4 months later, just as I said could happen one day. Had I signed that agreement, he would be co-owner of that song now, receiving royalties on it in the future, when his only accomplishment would have been rehearsing with me for a few months. Doesn't seem right does it? Well it isn't.

Bands have to make a decision on whether the band as a whole receives publishing and copyrights and shares equally. This is a valid way of being equitable and keeping the band members monetarily invested in the works created. But is this the way the songs come about? With the band just playing licks and other members join in, providing suggestions and before long a song develops? Well, someone can go off and personally write the lyrics and melody to the song, and claim indiviual ownership of the song, since these are the two main elements of a copyright for a song. But my feeling is that this is not always fair, and that if the lead guitarist for example creates a kick ass riff that it is really the hook of the song because it is so memorable... How is it fair that he suddenly not rewarded for helping write the song? It may be that the song would never have sold, without his memorable and repeating lick being in the song. Morally, anyone should understand that he would deserve a piece of the publishing, and should be listed on the copyright as co-writer, which would read...

Lyrics - John Smith
Music - John Smith and Badass Fender Axeman Bob

Keep in mind that if someone changes a few key lyrics in your song, no matter how trivial to you, and you accept them, then he has a right to listed as co-writer of the lyrics.

There is alot to consider before making pre-agreements to copyrights and such.

And while you are at it, what about the band?

1) Who owns the band?
2) What happens legally if a member leaves the band?
3) Ho should the finances be handled from gig money and CD and T-Shirt sales? Is a band banc account used? Who is allowed to make the decisions of how the money is divided or what it is used for?

All these questions and others, should be worked out before you get too successful as a band, or you will regret it later.