General Music Chat

George

I'm a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran - the hard core!

Our love of Doctrine is based upon Luther's Small Catechism - which is based totally on scipture.

CS Lewis wrote of a British officer who had 'found God' in the Western desert. He noted that having determined that God is real - it then makes sense to read the Word and find out what He is all about.

btw - the desert is my favorite place as well - wish I had one near me now I'd go there and stay a long time.

I'm using our Funeral Service today for my brother's memorial service. hope I can keep it together - it's my duty.

Talbot

And Jesus turned the water into "grape juice" and all the alcoholics at the party said in wonderment: "You have saved the best grape juice for last!"

Yeah. Like that would fly.

George

I'm a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran - the hard core!

Our love of Doctrine is based upon Luther's Small Catechism - which is based totally on scipture.

CS Lewis wrote of a British officer who had 'found God' in the Western desert. He noted that having determined that God is real - it then makes sense to read the Word and find out what He is all about.

btw - the desert is my favorite place as well - wish I had one near me now I'd go there and stay a long time.

I'm using our Funeral Service today for my brother's memorial service. hope I can keep it together - it's my duty.

Talbot

Mike,
It sounds like you are deep in the desert right now. Hang in there brother. Some hard days to face for sure.

Christ turned the water into "oinos" which can be interpreted as either unfermented juice, or fermented juice. Context would decide. Even a Webster's up into the 1950's defines "wine" as either unfermented or fermented juice. The word 'wine' (and the Euro equivalents), was a general purpose word for centuries right into the 20th century.

In the case of the wedding feast, cultural events which lasted a week or more, guests drinking alcohol for a week could have been given shaving lotion and they would not have known the difference. To taste a beverage of greater quality and flavor at the end of drinking it for a week, must have been a fabulous version of what the redeemed will drink in heaven.

"Wine is a mocker. Strong drink is raging, and whoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1

Throw in Habakkuk 2:15 (and plenty of others) and many believers, like myself, find it impossible to believe the Holy One turned water into decayed grape juice as His first miracle, which would have branded Him in a negative way amongst many of the people for a needless reason.

A recent article from this past week:

http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/headline_h ... 70292.html

It would be unconscionable for Christ to turn that water into a fermented beverage.

Christ turned the water into "oinos" which can be interpreted as either unfermented juice, or fermented juice. Context would decide. Even a Webster's up into the 1950's defines "wine" as either unfermented or fermented juice. The word 'wine' (and the Euro equivalents), was a general purpose word for centuries right into the 20th century.

In the case of the wedding feast, cultural events which lasted a week or more, guests drinking alcohol for a week could have been given shaving lotion and they would not have known the difference. To taste a beverage of greater quality and flavor at the end of drinking it for a week, must have been a fabulous version of what the redeemed will drink in heaven.

"Wine is a mocker. Strong drink is raging, and whoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1

Throw in Habakkuk 2:15 (and plenty of others) and many believers, like myself, find it impossible to believe the Holy One turned water into decayed grape juice as His first miracle, which would have branded Him in a negative way amongst many of the people for a needless reason.

A recent article from this past week:

http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/headline_h ... 70292.html

It would be unconscionable for Christ to turn that water into a fermented beverage.

I totally and full heartily disagree . . . respectfully.
Sin is of man, it is not inherent in inanimate objects like guns or wine.
The misuse / abuse is where in lay sin for sin, is of man.
If it would serve as a stumbling block for any man then best he avoid.
As for myself and my house, we will partake in the best spirit of Christian fellowship. And your welcome to join in, whether or not you partake yourself.

Talbot
Sir, I pray the Lord give you His peace as there is no understanding of man that can heal the wounds you bear.
There was a reason for the passing of every hair on each mans head.
We simply are not privileged to "the big picture".
George

"It would be unconscionable for Christ to turn that water into a fermented beverage."

This exemplifies why I detest organized religion. This morning in thousands of churches all over the world people sipped wine as the "blood of Christ". Yet we have one guy saying this is immoral, to the point of denying and rewriting history. Morality is subjective, so what may be wrong for you may be right for others. This is why we have laws written by man; the "laws" prescribed in any holy book can be interpreted in too many ways to be useful or meaningful. This is also why there is a strict separation between religion and law in this country; the law says it's OK to responsibly consume alcohol, so that's good enough for me. Cheers!

"It would be unconscionable for Christ to turn that water into a fermented beverage."

This exemplifies why I detest organized religion. This morning in thousands of churches all over the world people sipped wine as the "blood of Christ". Yet we have one guy saying this is immoral, to the point of denying and rewriting history. Morality is subjective, so what may be wrong for you may be right for others. This is why we have laws written by man; the "laws" prescribed in any holy book can be interpreted in too many ways to be useful or meaningful. This is also why there is a strict separation between religion and law in this country; the law says it's OK to responsibly consume alcohol, so that's good enough for me. Cheers!

Not a bad point Jimmy. However from your perspective verses my own. For conversations sake alone. I might add that THE LAW is very specific and not open to interpretation ( again from my point of view ).
Moreover often the teachings of Jesus are fashioned into "legalism" where there was no intent for it to be so.
I maintain that in comparison, the teachings of Christ were irrelevant to his action of intentionally dieing on the cross to bear the punishment for my sin in atonement to my Father.

Much like the oft misquoted verse of " judge not " where the fact that judgment incurs punishment, therefor recognition of sinful behaviors in our selves and others is not judgement, but necessary to living a Christ pleasing life to the best of our limited ability.
And all seem to very conveniently leave out Christ instruction " go and sin no more " When he knew full well that we as men were incapable of refrain from all sin.
The life death and resurrection of Christ is the gospel, to focus full attention anywhere else is to lose sight of the truth and beauty of redemption.

GOOD POST JIMMY.
What is funny is I was saying the same thing about smoking. This exemplifies the very reason why laws written by man must also be tempered with tolerance.
"This is also why there is a strict separation between religion and law in this country"
Unfortunately that is not true in todays political climate. Catholic churches are being forced to cover contraceptives under the national health care act. This goes against their religious beliefs. Where is the separation?

I think people on both sides have show tolerance, other wise we wind up with prohibition. We know how that worked out.

Besides most services only serve grape juice to keep the cost down. I have often wondered though,,, If the priest at a Catholic service is actually getting some real wine. Doesn't seem to be the the same stuff that gets passed around.

You are right!!!! CHEERS.

"Catholic churches are being forced to cover contraceptives under the national health care act. This goes against their religious beliefs. Where is the separation?"

The problem is many non-religious people work at Catholic hospitals. If you don't allow them access to contraceptives you are in effect discriminating against them.

"It would be unconscionable for Christ to turn that water into a fermented beverage."

This exemplifies why I detest organized religion. This morning in thousands of churches all over the world people sipped wine as the "blood of Christ". Yet we have one guy saying this is immoral, to the point of denying and rewriting history. Morality is subjective, so what may be wrong for you may be right for others. This is why we have laws written by man; the "laws" prescribed in any holy book can be interpreted in too many ways to be useful or meaningful. This is also why there is a strict separation between religion and law in this country; the law says it's OK to responsibly consume alcohol, so that's good enough for me. Cheers!

Not a bad point Jimmy. However from your perspective verses my own. For conversations sake alone. I might add that THE LAW is very specific and not open to interpretation ( again from my point of view ).
Moreover often the teachings of Jesus are fashioned into "legalism" where there was no intent for it to be so.
I maintain that in comparison, the teachings of Christ were irrelevant to his action of intentionally dieing on the cross to bear the punishment for my sin in atonement to my Father.

Much like the oft misquoted verse of " judge not " where the fact that judgment incurs punishment, therefor recognition of sinful behaviors in our selves and others is not judgement, but necessary to living a Christ pleasing life to the best of our limited ability.
And all seem to very conveniently leave out Christ instruction " go and sin no more " When he knew full well that we as men were incapable of refrain from all sin.
The life death and resurrection of Christ is the gospel, to focus full attention anywhere else is to lose sight of the truth and beauty of redemption.

Noah had Vineyards and Jesus turned water to wine.
Even if "Immorality" was a subjective term (And to date, Athiests and Non athiests alike have been unable to exact positive proof of such an assertion), there are still certain "imperatives" in life, which clearly have discerned themselves as right or wrong. FOr example: "Taking a life of another human being" is intrinsically wrong, when you consider the context of 'life' , but it could be 'right , if its done in the context of preserving your own life. I guess What remains, is the name of the referee you're gonna look to. (I'm banking on the one named Christ...)

As for wine drinking, an accidental overdose is forgivable..until it becomes predicated with the knowledge that being excessive, leads one to put others' lives at risk.

If one reads the bible carefully, it's replete with "imperatives", since the whole point of the 'gospel' is to demonstrate a particular context for humanity. What sets us apart is our ability to choose the options that an imperative forces us to examine. IMO, morality is at its optimum state, when we make decisions under a given imperative, and those decisions point toward God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_the_Bible

"Catholic churches are being forced to cover contraceptives under the national health care act. This goes against their religious beliefs. Where is the separation?"

The problem is many non-religious people work at Catholic hospitals. If you don't allow them access to contraceptives you are in effect discriminating against them.

Apples & oranges

These people are still at choice. Their employment situation is not being forced on them.
You don't like the policies of your employer, your at liberty to change.

"Catholic churches are being forced to cover contraceptives under the national health care act. This goes against their religious beliefs. Where is the separation?"

The problem is many non-religious people work at Catholic hospitals. If you don't allow them access to contraceptives you are in effect discriminating against them.

Jimmy that is not the point. Any one who works at Catholic hospitals has access to contraceptives, they just have to pay for it a different way. The Catholic church has been long apposed to contraceptive use,,,, It slows the growth of the church.
Making the Catholic church pay for something that is not in their religious doctrine is not separation of church and state.

Further more this approaches the real slippery slope of why I should pay for my neighbors contraceptives. Every health insurance policy is just going to add that onto the cost of a policy. Even better yet if I have to pay for their sexual activity, then why don't they cover drinking wine as a health benefit. Maybe they should cover the cost of real wine at a communion service.
How about covering guitar strings, music has been shown to increase intelligence and reduce stress.
How about flying, I want every one to support my hobby because it makes me feel good. I know that is ridiculous but the question is where does it stop. Vitamins, health club memberships, vacations, this list could go on.

Somebody has to pay for it. I'm tired of paying for it. We all have to be accountable for all this free stuff. It isn't free, it has to be paid for somehow.

The point is this is not separation of church and state.

Contraceptives have been available through many health plans for years and allow me to educate you men that contraceptives aren't just for stopping you from getting pregnant, it's to control women who have problematic menstrual cycles and cause them to hemorrhage and other health conditions - it isn't just for controlling the population. Geez. And how does that differ from the other drugs available to human beings who spend years not taking care of themselves through poor diet, drinking, and becoming obese? Why should I have to foot the bill for them then if we don't want to stop our neighbor from getting pregnant?

Chaeya

Contraceptives have been available through many health plans for years and allow me to educate you men that contraceptives aren't just for stopping you from getting pregnant, it's to control women who have problematic menstrual cycles and cause them to hemorrhage and other health conditions - it isn't just for controlling the population. Geez. And how does that differ from the other drugs available to human beings who spend years not taking care of themselves through poor diet, drinking, and becoming obese? Why should I have to foot the bill for them then if we don't want to stop our neighbor from getting pregnant?

Chaeya

Some of "YOU MEN" are medical professionals. Well aware of the use and each individuals right to and their RESPONSIBILITY to provide medical care for themselves, or not. Without religion or governmental interference.

Contraceptives have been available through many health plans for years and allow me to educate you men that contraceptives aren't just for stopping you from getting pregnant, it's to control women who have problematic menstrual cycles and cause them to hemorrhage and other health conditions - it isn't just for controlling the population. Geez. And how does that differ from the other drugs available to human beings who spend years not taking care of themselves through poor diet, drinking, and becoming obese? Why should I have to foot the bill for them then if we don't want to stop our neighbor from getting pregnant?

Chaeya

Now you are starting to understand the problem. Government has no right to be involved in all this crap. This is about personal freedom, responsibility, and tolerance.
All the rest of you expect the the government to tell you how to live.

I got news. LIFE IS TO SHORT. I don't have time to waste telling another man to stop fuucking around with mine.!!!!!!