General Chat (Non-Music-Related)

Well the sh*t's about to hit the fan now over in Israel.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... inian-arab

It's a shame that incidents like this happen and it's the years of going back and forth that never ends. So there will be retaliation and then the retaliation will get retaliated and so on and so forth.

Chaeya

this is one long thread

...Yod ... you are correct in that we are both truthseekers. I admit that I am ignorant regarding much of the politics in the Middle East as well as other locals. I merely read, discuss, think and follow my instincts. They have served me well and I trust them more than anything else. I am not blinded by many that I encounter by being of a particular political party or religion. So much hatred is borne of these things.

I have no hate for Jews, Muslims, Christians or any other as long as they are not fanatical and stupidly closed minded and blind....tall orders when dealing with these groups I have found. Being a total bookworm I have come to know many excellent bookstores everywhere I have lived and the majority were owned by Jews which I find interesting. I have become friends with many of them and their families.

I know that any disagreements we may have could be resolved (between us) in some fashion around a campfire with some talking. Here are some things to consider and "chew on". I know that you are busy and so do not expect instant replies so do not sweat it.

Regarding the Middle East, especially Israel/Jerusalem/Palestine ... I think that there is a great inability to ptoperly distinguish between the past and the present and between cultural roots and politics ... Judea and Samaria or the West Bank. "Redeeming" Nachalot Avot was never fundamental to political or cultural zionism ;;; as opposed to religious zionism.

Netanyahu's interpretation of zionism seems to be more like Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook than Theodor Herzi or Ahad Ha'Am.

"The truth is that in the area of our Homeland, in the heart of our Jewish Homeland, now lives a large population of Palestinians "

June 2009 Netanyahu

This seems to me to depict the Jews as landlords and the Palestinians, as trespassers claiming squatters rights. There is a claim that left and right in Israel are disappearing and that Israel is a pragmatic, security-oriented centre. This is only superficial as the struggle for the "Soul of Israel" is still going on over 100 years after the "First World Zionist Congress". Of course I know that all Jews are not zionists.

Like those in the Tirt xu Movement, Netanyahu claims to speak for zionist consensus but he does not really and never has in this respect. So Yod you are correct about him not being a zionist and I confess the real confusion for me is which definition of zionism ?

Israel has told the US that unless it changes it's policy re Iran then Israel will attack Iran before the US November elections.

Debka File

Netanyahu wants 3 commitments from Obama.

A pledge the US will attack if Iran does not back down.

A tight deadline for negotiations with Tehran.

A further tightening of sanctions.

Reuters

Israel has several major requirements that Obama must meet to delay their attack until after the elections.

1...Obama must formally "inform" the 2 Houses of Congress in writing that he plans to use military force against Iran ..."requesting" their endorsement.

2...To show his "commitment" Obama must visit Israel in the weeks before the election day, delivering a speech to the Knesset pledging to use American Military Force against the Islamic Republic of Tehran unless it abandons it's nuclear program.

3...The US will "upgrade" Israels military intelligence and technological capabilities until Spring of 2013 so that if Obama goes back on his "commitment" or fails to be re-elected ... Israel will then be in command of the resources required to inflict mortal damage on Iran's nuclear program with a unilateral strike.

4...If 1 to 3 are covered and Netanyahu is convinced that the US intends to strike next spring then Israel "may" agree to hold back attacking this autumn.

DEBKA FILE

Obama has not rejected this plan. If he accepts it, this would mean once again that the US Congress would play virtually no role in the use of American Military Power which is against the Constitution. Obama has always said that military force is a viable option against Ira.

More coming .....

this is one long thread

the author deliberately picked a controversial subject guaranteed to string people along wanting to access veiled answers from a mystic living on the border of Arizona and Mexico, you can't easily dismiss something this intriguing ... like reading National Enquirer without having to pay a dime.. if you got the time

.... Popularity...Israel has a 20% Muslim population and this group does not really support Netanyahu but sides with Hama/Palestinians. Of the 80% remaining Netanyahu has almost half and Israel has a parliamentary government which is made up of coalitions.

By a vote of 28 to 16 "New Austerity Measures" were passed in the Knesset. Israels budget deficit has climbed to 4.0% of Israel's GDP which is twice that "expected" for 2012. These measures include an immediate increase of VAT from 16% to 17% and a 1% tax hike for individuals whose monthly income is greater than 14,000 shekels. There wer budget cuts of 740 million shekels.

All this is expected to anger the Israelis who have already been regularly protesting against the high cost of living and political issues. A poll taken on Friday showed Netanyahu's popularity at it's lowest since he "came to Power" in April 2009 , with 60% dissatisfied with his performance, 31% satisfied and the balance "with no opinion".

AFP Mon Aug 6 2012


"Netanyahu and Syeinitz are detached from the people"

Shelly Yachimovich Labour PartyHead

Economists predict the deficit may reach NIS 58 Billion in 2013 and Globes reported the 2012 deficit to be close to NIS 40 Billion.

"The choice is ultimately Iran's to make. Our own choice is clear. We will use all elements of American Power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon"
Hillary Clinton July 2012

"I can assure you if I'm President, the Iranians will have no question but that I will be willing to take military action if neccesary to prevent them from becoming a nuclear threat to the world. I don't believe at this stage, therefore, if I'm President that we need to have a war powers approval or special authorization for military force. The President has that capacity now."

Mitt Romney June Face The Nation Interview 2012

I personally feel that the greatest nuclear threat to the world has always been nuclear power plants and now Fukushima is demonstrating this. There are 23 reactors like Fukushima in the US at this moment and nothing is being done to eliminate this threat ??????

WARMONGER....one who advocates, urges or attempts to stir up war.

Ta

...Dane I thank you for what I take as a compliment. Ta

... Yod.. please let me clarify my statement in response to yours re teenage rape etc. I was referring to the entire world and not singling out Israel and I failed to make this clear...when I write the thoughts sometimes get smeared as they are put to the web....sorry. I see the condition of the world and mankind in general as becoming a charnel house and morality has been almost eradicated along with thought. We are most definately into some deep content and as I said a campfire will not solve much but will give us more understanding all around. It is a growing mess.

Glen ... you are correct and everyone is being played as they have always been. Divide and conquer is a simplistic and effective strategy which is easily put into practice....and it will become much bigger than just the Middle East.

Cajun Daddy .. ThankYou for your Post and mention of the book ... I will check it out. Controvesy breeds thought...sometimes. I believe everything is relevant especially books, speeches, people etc. that we deem controversial. Your statement re Islam seeming to have no rules is correct I feel and although it seems not logical it is the same to me as in the US and the way they are mocking freedom, the Constitution and death. You are so right with it being complicated... it is riddled with confusion, hatred and deceptions. It is like a freight train laoded with dynamite rushing down the tracks uncontrolled as loads of people fight for the controls of which in the end will be a wreck.

Chaeya ... I thank you for your first Post here. Very relevant and timely.

Sir Jam ... thanks for your words...I like the way your Post and bottom statement kind of fit together.

Ta everyone

Here is the mystery of all mysteries.

The Jewish People of Israel claim that they have (and should keep) possession of 'promised land' (From God). The Arabs and Palestinians would insist that the land that the Jewish people took over, was not the promised land. (as in the Arabs do not recognize the intention of God) .

I couldn't help but notice how tiny that land is and how huge the surrounding borders are .
Yes, indeed, God has bestowed the promised land upon the children of Israel... It is NOT written that Israel cannot give the land away, distribute it and so on.

Now, lets talk about some real, serious promised land. (Israel must surely be aware that her children live in all corners of the earth.)

Few doorways are actually closed to the Jewish People, save for the Arab countries, who are known to be haters of everyone...not just the Jewish people.

I'm thinking, that God would like to see how important that promised land really is to Israel...and how important, lasting peace really is to Israel.

So here's the million dollar question: What would happen...If Israel gave away all the promised land?

So here's the million dollar question: What would happen...If Israel gave away all the promised land?

And stop all this madness? To actually be the bigger person and say f**k it, have it, we're gone?

Then you'd have all the instigators jumping in to call them weak, pussies, and so on for walking away. Then you'd have the Arabs swearing they cursed the land, left the land uninhabitable, and still would want to fight them. Then you'd have the secular groups of Israeli's who don't think they should give in and insist on staying, thus more fighting.

All would be called in the name of "principle."

I could be wrong, but knowing people as I do . . .

Chaeya

LOL . . . then you'd have millions of Jews in the USA!
Just sayin'

LOL . . . then you'd have millions of Jews in the USA!
Just sayin'

We already have millions of Jews in America, ha ha, like what's an extra few million?

Chaeya

...

WARMONGER....one who advocates, urges or attempts to stir up war.

Ta

You make it sound like it's that simple.

Firstly, I'd take whatever Debka says with a pound of salt. I've been burned trusting their reports before. They are overly sensational about half the time.

Brother, in the last 3 days I have visited places where 3 million Jews were turned into ashes after undergoing an excruciating 45 minute suffocation from Zyclone B gassing. Do you have any idea how slow and painful that kind of death is? Your lungs start bleeding and then burn up inside you.

This happened while the world watched and did nothing for several years.

Auschwitz was probably the birthplace of modern Israel. When they say "never again" they mean it and for good reason.

The lesson Jews learned but the world has forgotten is that when someone says they want to kill you, they should be taken seriously.

Let me ask you this: Would you depend on the words or promises of protection from Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, or Barak Obama if murderers living in every house surrounding you made credible threats on your life?

Or would you buy a weapon?

If we were going to do something about Iran, it should have been done much sooner. Israel knows they can't rely on us to take care of them, especially not Barak Obama. That is why they WILL launch an attack on Iran before the election.

I will be touring there with a camera in October.

...

WARMONGER....one who advocates, urges or attempts to stir up war.

Ta

You make it sound like it's that simple.

Firstly, I'd take whatever Debka says with a pound of salt. I've been burned trusting their reports before. They are overly sensational about half the time.

Brother, in the last 3 days I have visited places where 3 million Jews were turned into ashes after undergoing an excruciating 45 minute suffocation from Zyclone B gassing. Do you have any idea how slow and painful that kind of death is? Your lungs start bleeding and then burn up inside you.

This happened while the world watched and did nothing for several years.

Auschwitz was probably the birthplace of modern Israel. When they say "never again" they mean it and for good reason.

The lesson Jews learned but the world has forgotten is that when someone says they want to kill you, they should be taken seriously.

Let me ask you this: Would you depend on the words or promises of protection from Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, or Barak Obama if murderers living in every house surrounding you made credible threats on your life?

Or would you buy a weapon?

If we were going to do something about Iran, it should have been done much sooner. Israel knows they can't rely on us to take care of them, especially not Barak Obama. That is why they WILL launch an attack on Iran before the election.

I will be touring there with a camera in October.

That should be an interesting trip. How certain are you that Israel will launch before the election? For the Record, Israel always knew they couldn't rely on U.S. ...But as friends, (And recipients of a lot of cash and wep tech... ) they showed discipline and restraint, on our behalf for so many years. When Obama stepped in , its as though all bets were off... Actually...When Obama snubbed them in the beginning... Israel knew what it had to do...

Brother, in the last 3 days I have visited places where 3 million Jews were turned into ashes after undergoing an excruciating 45 minute suffocation from Zyclone B gassing. Do you have any idea how slow and painful that kind of death is? Your lungs start bleeding and then burn up inside you.

This happened while the world watched and did nothing for several years.

Auschwitz was probably the birthplace of modern Israel. When they say "never again" they mean it and for good reason.

The lesson Jews learned but the world has forgotten is that when someone says they want to kill you, they should be taken seriously.

Let me ask you this: Would you depend on the words or promises of protection from Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, or Barak Obama if murderers living in every house surrounding you made credible threats on your life?

Or would you buy a weapon?

If we were going to do something about Iran, it should have been done much sooner. Israel knows they can't rely on us to take care of them, especially not Barak Obama. That is why they WILL launch an attack on Iran before the election.

I will be touring there with a camera in October.

Yod, the world didn't know anything about Auschwitz while it was happening because the Germans kept that secret, even from other Germans. Of course, people knew they were probably killing them, but they didn't dare say anything, so the world didn't know until after the fact. No one knew what Hitler was doing because he was fronting off to everyone, including the German people. The German's tell stories about how they would put on these "shows" when foreign diplomats would arrive, especially during the Olympics. American servicemen were shocked when they came upon these concentration camps. It was only years later then the German people started talking did they find out what Hitler was really doing. That they took handicapped children from their parents and did experiments on them then killed them. Or that Hitler's little youth camps were fronts for German boys knocking up teenage German girls and when their little Helga came back pregnant, parents were threatened with jail or worse if they opened their mouths to protest it. And it wasn't just Jews who were gassed, there were gays, gypsies, and other social misfits. So please don't forget them!

And let's be real here. No nation gets involved in war out of the goodness of their hearts and out of moral principal. Wars use up a lot of money and resources and in return make money and profits - that's what it's always about. What's in it for them! Foreigners didn't get involved with the American Revolution because it was the "right thing to do" they were promised something in return. America didn't get involved until Japan brought them in - then they feed America with all this noble b.s. like they had to get rid of Hitler. No, they were f**k pissed off and they wanted to do what they always do, show the world who was the bigger kid on the playground. They f**k Japan up royally - after that, then they went and got Hitler. They didn't drop that bomb on Germany. They didn't do it because Hitler was a bad guy, no more than they really ousted Saddam Hussein because he was the devil. They sure as hell haven't done anything in Burma when their president was imprisoned and they were pretty much just killing people. When they do offer political asylum to any group there's usually a political strategy behind it. When they offer foreign money, it's really to buy foreign interest, like all that money that goes to Africa has been to set up foreign corporations over there. Profits.

Chaeya

...

WARMONGER....one who advocates, urges or attempts to stir up war.

Ta

You make it sound like it's that simple.

Firstly, I'd take whatever Debka says with a pound of salt. I've been burned trusting their reports before. They are overly sensational about half the time.

Brother, in the last 3 days I have visited places where 3 million Jews were turned into ashes after undergoing an excruciating 45 minute suffocation from Zyclone B gassing. Do you have any idea how slow and painful that kind of death is? Your lungs start bleeding and then burn up inside you.

This happened while the world watched and did nothing for several years.

Auschwitz was probably the birthplace of modern Israel. When they say "never again" they mean it and for good reason.

The lesson Jews learned but the world has forgotten is that when someone says they want to kill you, they should be taken seriously.

Let me ask you this: Would you depend on the words or promises of protection from Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, or Barak Obama if murderers living in every house surrounding you made credible threats on your life?

Or would you buy a weapon?

If we were going to do something about Iran, it should have been done much sooner. Israel knows they can't rely on us to take care of them, especially not Barak Obama. That is why they WILL launch an attack on Iran before the election.

I will be touring there with a camera in October.

It's one thing to defend yourself, and another to attack everyone who looks at you funny.

I kinda lost my pity towards Israel when this happened:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world ... tilla.html

..and when they invaded lebanon the year before
and when they ... oh nevemind. my whole point is they are acting out and not really caring about anything but themselves. Kinda reminds me of a spoiled child having constant tantrums.

Other than that, I don't have anything against them as a people, never really thought about them from that POV. I just look at the whole of whats going on.. after a while, them constantly using the past to justify inhumane acts today just got old.