General Music Chat

Glenn you hit a point, and I know you like to blast me cause Im just a cover "HACK", but you said have fun, so to me, whether you play covers or originals just make sure its fun.

It's been a lot of years since I played in a band... but back in the day most of the clubs were dive-like... very seedy underground places. We'd play any and every hole in the wall just for the exposure. But these places weren't bars to just sit and drink or dance they were clubs for bands. And there was live music at least 3 nights a week sometimes 5.
I see the same type of environment here in Charlotte only much smaller.
To me it was a great environment to play original music. And it was a lot of the same people week in and out. But there were no cover bands just original music 3-4 nights a week. I envy you guys even if you're playin in some dive... that's were I found the most appreciation for music.
People didn't come to hook up or watch football on some big screen... they came for the music and possibly the drugs.
It was a blast...

I like to play covers because people relate to them. If you have a good following, and people have grown to appreciate you, they accept originals more openly.

We used to play both at gigs, but the covers were appreciated more then the originals, even when the originals were at least as good or better than the covers. Song recognition plays a big part with audiences. Go figure.

Yea, I play in a cover band. I've also been in a few originals projects.

There's a few things to touch base on with this topic-

*It seems as though classic rock is being focused on in the original post. For the last 12 years, I've absolutely loathed new music, be it modern rock or that crap being spouted by singer/songwriters like Colbie Callat and Sara Bareillas..

...Until recently.
In the last 6 months, I've been turned onto some really great new music, and the radio stations are finally playing it- My cover band has been focused on learning new stuff and its killing at gigs.

Bands like:
Black Keys, Fun, Foster the People, Grouplove, Goteye, Neon Trees, Killers, Death Cab for Cutie, M83, Mumford & Sons, Of Monsters and Men, Metric, the Shins, Young The Giant, Cage the Elephant... the list goes on and on.

For the first time since about 1991, I'm finally excited about hearing new music. Some of it is really great stuff, and even the more pop-related stuff is 100x better than anything I've heard in decades.

We dropped crap like sweet home alabama, etc.. I think I'd rather listen to the audio track from 2 girls and a cup over sweet home..

And that really leads into originals: a truly great and gifted originals artist needs to have a solid background with covers. I meet so many young original artists whose music is just not compelling. The majority of them have the potential too, but they lack the musical background to really have any depth in understanding complex chord structures, different approaches to arrangements, time signatures, bridges, and much more.

So many young original artists today think they are gifted and just try to jump right into it. Sure, they may be able to write a decent hook, but more often than not, it's not a "great" hook. A good hook is what we called "filler" songs on albums back in the day. These young original artists write song after song, almost always in 4/4 and almost always follow the same arrangement format: I/V/C/V/C/B/C/O

Many also stick to 2-3 different keys, usually in the comfort zone with D/G/C, D/A/B, A/C/E.. you get the picture. All songs are 3 and 4 note yawners. The cream that generally rises in this group are the ones who happen to be more gifted singers, but that really doesn't excuse the piss-poor music writing.

My point: Learn a shit-ton of covers, expand your horizons, and THEN start working on original material.

You can't be a rocket scientist if you skip high school math classes.

Not to be an azzhole but perhaps we should
learn song structure ie A B A A B A B C

And perhaps spend alittle time on chord and
scale theory a I IV V in D will be D/A/G, in A
it will be A/D/E, in G it will be G/C/D

So when you say D/G/C, thats the I V and the VII

Theory's been around a long time.

Like somebody said on another post, their band
played Sweet Home Alabama, and you'd have thought
the whole crowd was from Alabama. Were entertainers and
should play what the crowd wants to hear to a point.

You can't be a rocket scientist if you skip high school math classes.

You mean you won't write like an individual if you study all the examples that have come before you.

I think you are losing your grapes.

If you want to write well, just write and keep writing.
(oh about song 100, you'll start doing real damage, covers or no)
Plenty of people over study and think the hell out of the process.

If you write a tune and you don't like it, finish it and go on to the next one.
The next one will be better than the last.

Above all, don't take any advice about writing music too seriously from any one entity...next you'll be loading 10000 eggs in 1 basket.

Not to be an azzhole but perhaps we should
learn song structure ie A B A A B A B C

Learned that in the 7th grade thanks. Prefer my own way of doing it
I(ntro) V(erse) C(horus) blah blah, easy enough to follow and my way doesn't leave room for vagueness like C,D,E - which is the bridge? I dunno, it's right after the second chorus.. um is that part B or C? er...

And perhaps spend alittle time on chord and
scale theory a I IV V in D will be D/A/G, in A
it will be A/D/E, in G it will be G/C/D

So when you say D/G/C, thats the I V and the VII

Theory's been around a long time.

I was just quoting the most common chord combinations I see with singer/songwriters, not theory.

I don't know why you are going so far out of your way to try to show me up and be a smug jerk about it at the same time, but I can assure you my skill and knowledge of music are adequate. I've known guys who could smoke EVH and malmsteen on guitar and run theory circles around John Williams, and yet they were such douchebags that producers would still call me instead, simply because I'm NOT a douchebag wanker. After the recording session would end, we would usually end up getting drunk with the other studio players and make fun of said douchebag wankers. Just sayin.

Like somebody said on another post, their band
played Sweet Home Alabama, and you'd have thought
the whole crowd was from Alabama. Were entertainers and
should play what the crowd wants to hear to a point.

And the crowds in my region (<--pay attention to that, son) are pretty much as sick of the song as we are. I laugh when other bands around here break out into SWA like the party is going to explode at the first note of the intro.. and then crickets. People are pretty sick of the oldies here. Your region may vary.

If you don't have any apple pie moonshine, then don't play SWA..

That poor tune has been rode hard and put away wet, if at all.

bump, bump, bump What was that? Oh yeah it's one of the dead guys rolling in his coffin..

You can't be a rocket scientist if you skip high school math classes.

You mean you won't write like an individual if you study all the examples that have come before you.


I think you are losing your grapes.

If you want to write well, just write and keep writing.
(oh about song 100, you'll start doing real damage, covers or no)
Plenty of people over study and think the hell out of the process.

Do you honestly believe that? Imagine if Stephen King never read a book before he started writing. Some people (called exceptions) certainly can "make up" complex structures and timing, but with no basis, will still fall short of someone who is well versed in both the theory and application of what they are doing. The obvious logic would be to look at just how many singer/songwriters play 3-note songs in 4/4, as I mentioned above. But if you want to disagree, I respect that.

In the end, really- Do what you want to do and what makes you happy, right? Methodology is simply a variable.

If you write a tune and you don't like it, finish it and go on to the next one.
The next one will be better than the last.

Above all, don't take any advice about writing music too seriously from any one entity...next you'll be loading 10000 eggs in 1 basket.

I didn't say pick one band and base your life work on it. There's everything from 1500 year old gospel to modern day "let the bodies hit the floor". All for the taking. You learn, you absorb what you find useful, and you use it to CREATE something awesome.

If you want to get into semantics, then hey, go invent a new guitar that introduces quarter-steps between whole notes instead of half.. then write some REALLY unique stuff... right? Hey.. again, do what makes you happy.

In the last 6 months, I've been turned onto some really great new music, and the radio stations are finally playing it- My cover band has been focused on learning new stuff and its killing at gigs.

Bands like:
Black Keys, Fun, Foster the People, Grouplove, Goteye, Neon Trees, Killers, Death Cab for Cutie, M83, Mumford & Sons, Of Monsters and Men, Metric, the Shins, Young The Giant, Cage the Elephant... the list goes on and on. [...]

So many young original artists today think they are gifted and just try to jump right into it. Sure, they may be able to write a decent hook, but more often than not, it's not a "great" hook. A good hook is what we called "filler" songs on albums back in the day. These young original artists write song after song, almost always in 4/4 and almost always follow the same arrangement format: I/V/C/V/C/B/C/O

Many also stick to 2-3 different keys, usually in the comfort zone with D/G/C, D/A/B, A/C/E.. you get the picture. All songs are 3 and 4 note yawners. The cream that generally rises in this group are the ones who happen to be more gifted singers, but that really doesn't excuse the piss-poor music writing.

Foster the People's biggest hit uses four chords in straight 4/4 time for the entire song. Lyrically it's V/C/V/C..., where the last chorus just repeats until the fadeout. The bassline, while obscenely catchy, is just a simple ascending scale in Fm with the odd fill thrown in here and there. It takes more time to play than to learn, because once you know the first four chords and the lyrics, you literally know the entire song.

Likewise, Gotye's biggest hit is just three chords, and the last one (Bb) only shows up about halfway into the song. The arrangement certainly stands out, but more for the clever production than any real musicality. I get the impression he listened to a lot of Peter Gabriel records, since he does a decent job aping Gabriel's singing voice and off-beat aesthetic, but didn't pick up on anything deeper than that.

Musically speaking, those "really great new" bands you like aren't doing anything more sophisticated than the "young original artists" with their three-chord progressions and simplistic song structures. Don't get me wrong, they've got some talent, but mostly it's just better production and vastly better marketing.

Well ya know if you write and it sucks, well you are doing the wrong thing or not experienced enough to know the diff yet.

It's always a learning progression.

I just think it's WAY TOO PRESUMPTUOUS to narrow it down to any one thing.

Like you said, "whatever makes you happy". Just be careful not to step on your own dick. lol It hurts. (I know from experience) lol

In the last 6 months, I've been turned onto some really great new music, and the radio stations are finally playing it- My cover band has been focused on learning new stuff and its killing at gigs.

Bands like:
Black Keys, Fun, Foster the People, Grouplove, Goteye, Neon Trees, Killers, Death Cab for Cutie, M83, Mumford & Sons, Of Monsters and Men, Metric, the Shins, Young The Giant, Cage the Elephant... the list goes on and on. [...]

So many young original artists today think they are gifted and just try to jump right into it. Sure, they may be able to write a decent hook, but more often than not, it's not a "great" hook. A good hook is what we called "filler" songs on albums back in the day. These young original artists write song after song, almost always in 4/4 and almost always follow the same arrangement format: I/V/C/V/C/B/C/O

Many also stick to 2-3 different keys, usually in the comfort zone with D/G/C, D/A/B, A/C/E.. you get the picture. All songs are 3 and 4 note yawners. The cream that generally rises in this group are the ones who happen to be more gifted singers, but that really doesn't excuse the piss-poor music writing.

Foster the People's biggest hit uses four chords in straight 4/4 time for the entire song. Lyrically it's V/C/V/C..., where the last chorus just repeats until the fadeout. The bassline, while obscenely catchy, is just a simple ascending scale in Fm with the odd fill thrown in here and there. It takes more time to play than to learn, because once you know the first four chords and the lyrics, you literally know the entire song.

Likewise, Gotye's biggest hit is just three chords, and the last one (Bb) only shows up about halfway into the song. The arrangement certainly stands out, but more for the clever production than any real musicality. I get the impression he listened to a lot of Peter Gabriel records, since he does a decent job aping Gabriel's singing voice and off-beat aesthetic, but didn't pick up on anything deeper than that.

Musically speaking, those "really great new" bands you like aren't doing anything more sophisticated than the "young original artists" with their three-chord progressions and simplistic song structures. Don't get me wrong, they've got some talent, but mostly it's just better production and vastly better marketing.

Hey- apples and oranges to the point I was making about singer/songwriters, but hey- I'll bite.

So yes, I am aware those songs are 3 or 4 chords, in 4/4, etc. You stated it well that the big difference is the production.. although I think the marketing aspect is a moot point, every band has their own story on how they got to where they are.

So Let's use Goteye as the discussion piece- 3 chords. Not even a lot in the way of vocal variances, yet it still has something that others don't. What is that? I'm thinking production, obviously, but how much credit do you give towards production vs. songwriting? With the Goteye song, there's a LOT of complex rhythms going on in the background. Almost any great song you can pull out your azz will always break down to a simple 3-4 chord bass/root notes.. adding 9-10 root notes won't make any song on the planet any better. Like Nirvana, the Beatles, and many others- Simplicity sells, but the magic bullet for most of these bands is that they have their own "sound".. a sound that sets them apart from other bands and is usually an integral part of their chord and vocal phrasing. Singer/songwriters on guitars don't have those luxuries and unfortunately will fall in obscurity when they try to copycat other singer songwriters who DID manage to find their own "sound" with just an acoustic guitar and a mic.

Digging deeper into things, look at the Black Keys.. OMG- simple music.. yet take a good listen to their phrasing.. it's still got a tone and complexity that creates their own sound.. some of which clearly borrowed from 70's hard rock, mixed with today. But in the end, it's vastly separated from the level of singer-songwriter I was referring to.

Not wanting to show you up, but the most common
chord progression of all time is a I IV V, at least for
the last 500 years. Before that it was a I V, no matter
what key your playing in.

If you can't communicate to other musicians in the
common language that is used your just slowing
the whole process down.

Just sayin you want to talk about rocket science and math,
music of past masters should be studied also. Sorry if I come
off smug to you, and could luck on that studio work.

I really don't know anybody that can smoke Mr Van Halen.

I really don't make fun of anybody behind their back, I'm
pretty straight forward, and will tell you to your face how I
feel about you.

Learn what a I IV V is in every key, it is the most common chord
progression, and no one on this forum will deny it. Learn it in every
key, and your on your way.

I guess were off to a bad start, sorry about that.

I've assumed you are smug because even after I've already stated I know the simple concept of a 145 progression (oh I mean I IV V ), theory, etc.. you still insist on telling me to "go learn" what we both know are the most basic of the basics. I've been doing this so long that I've developed my own style of wording things, and can you honestly say that you failed to grasp the meaning behind what I stated? If you want to discuss the relevance of the circle of 5th's then sure.. lets speak in music-geek terms about the diatonic scale relationships between different keys, and make sure to cite the off-topic note intervals ad-neasuem; but other than that, try to refrain from being the musical-grammar police and if you don't understand a reference, I'd be happy to explain my point in a more clear and concise manner.

Hey why don't you sh*t and fall back in it asshole.

Is that grammar adequate enough?