General Music Chat

Except for the last 2000 years or so when it was understood to mean a spirit that had no good intent towards man.
the qualities of these spirits were very frightful to people, though in modern times we mostly associate these things with mental disorders.
it really depends on your spiritual philosophy
If you basically a Zoroastrian, you would see them as emissaries of darkness.
If you're more oriental pantheistic, you might see them as beneficial to some one even if that someone wasn't you.
The Greeks by the way, named every thing but but didn't really believe in a supernatural anything.
they believed that man was the measure of all things.
that's if you like the Greek idea.

Etu you like to refer back to more primordial times picking and choosing as you go, and discount the effect of modern time, probably because history and philosophy appears to dominated by the church.
I think that's a mistake really, to weight a certain time period in favor of another, when the only difference really is the exsistance of well established roman credit, oh and literacy.
with the possible exception that the father back you the more murky the records are, giving people the ability to dress them up pretty much in way that suits them.

you guys have got me confused, (think the Rolling Stones talk about the state of mind known as "confusion" in their tune Sympathy For The Devil") but is the inner daemon spoken of by the Ancient Greeks the same as a Luciferian demon? in one aspect a daemon is something that can be helpful to a human all around, but a demon is to be admonished... read Ouspensky literature when I was in my early 20's trying to get meaning out of human existence, but without the right mind it can lead to more confusion rather than helpfulness... guess that's why you need to be ready spritually, physically, and emotionally, before you advance.. Fripp and Summers come to mind, "I Advance Masked"

The modern misunderstanding of demon comes from the Greek word Daimon, which was more of a guardian angel type of thing that had our best interest in mind and would guide us in times of pending disaster, was also our direct contact to our soul, and would also act as our creative muse.

There is no Luciferian demon (associated with evil), but rather the Daemon in the Greek respect.

I recall having delightful conversations with Fripp back in 1985 when I lived and studied with him about our Daemon/Muse, very intelligent man.

.so Etu, you possibly studied Gurdijeff also, as did Fripp, possibly if you have had actual conversations with Robert?

Yes, even though he didn't go too far into his personal beliefs, we did talk about Gurdjieff alot. Are you interested in Gurdjieff and Ouspensky?

my closest acquaintance/friend that I had conversations with quite a lot with in 1991 that could be classed in the Robert Fripp "philosophic order" would be a certain Tzigane Tzinsadamset a real 7th son of a 7th son Romany dude that was 80+ years old while living in Boylan Heights (Raleigh, N. Car.) .. he was an astoundingly talented accordion player who played with Yankovic back in the 1940's..and had been to a party Aleister Crowley attended in the 1930's.. this dude Ziggy as he was nicknamed also lived in Myrtle Beach S.Car. and worked with the police department in Myrtle Beach as a medium who discovered the whereabouts of missing persons with use of his "skills".. he had a scrap book with newspaper articles/clippings he showed me once, when he could "read" I was doubtful of such hocus-pocus, but it was real, I saw the proof in the clippings Ziggy "finding" bodies and such.. he came to Raleigh in the winter time to play gigs at upper end establishments, in Raleigh at night and worked in a pawn shop by day.a couple times he flew to Cleveland and Houston for even bigger paying gigs... also, it was a haunted house too we lived in at 803 W. Lenoir St. (.. don't even get me started about the bizarre phenomenon I saw and heard, while residing in that rooming house... Ziggy, drew a sketch once of the woman and young daughter who was causing the pheonomenon.. yeah, he had abilities, but we all know Satan/Set does not exist..

you guys have got me confused, (think the Rolling Stones talk about the state of mind known as "confusion" in their tune Sympathy For The Devil") but is the inner daemon spoken of by the Ancient Greeks the same as a Luciferian demon? in one aspect a daemon is something that can be helpful to a human all around, but a demon is to be admonished... read Ouspensky literature when I was in my early 20's trying to get meaning out of human existence, but without the right mind it can lead to more confusion rather than helpfulness... guess that's why you need to be ready spritually, physically, and emotionally, before you advance.. Fripp and Summers come to mind, "I Advance Masked"

The modern misunderstanding of demon comes from the Greek word Daimon, which was more of a guardian angel type of thing that had our best interest in mind and would guide us in times of pending disaster, was also our direct contact to our soul, and would also act as our creative muse.

There is no Luciferian demon (associated with evil), but rather the Daemon in the Greek respect.

I recall having delightful conversations with Fripp back in 1985 when I lived and studied with him about our Daemon/Muse, very intelligent man.

.so Etu, you possibly studied Gurdijeff also, as did Fripp, possibly if you have had actual conversations with Robert?

Yes, even though he didn't go too far into his personal beliefs, we did talk about Gurdjieff alot. Are you interested in Gurdjieff and Ouspensky?

.. I still have my battered softback P.D. Ouspensky "A New Model Of The Universe" so battered that I had to put duct tape on the spine to keep it together it's in 2 separate chunks now..LOL.. can't say I read it much anymore, I got it back in 1980 when I was at Air Force set school stationed at Lowry AFB at some Denver shopping mall..

Interesting story, after a couple of days getting settled in (we were staying at George Washington's nephew's Estate in W. Virginia) me and few other students took a walk around the estate to find out that most of the scattered buildings were now being used to conduct Extra Sensory experiments . . . it was pretty cool to find that out, we were psyched! Very exciting time in my life.

Nah, I don't yell ^.^ It's just impolite to not give credit where credit is due! Musicians of all people should be weary of that

Sounds like an interesting book though. Perhaps one day I'll find time to read what wasn't already posted !

did you write this article? Or just borrowing it?
http://uncensoredhistoryoftheblues.purp ... devil.html

No Mike Rugel posted and got it out of the book Deep Blues, what's your point? Are you gonna yell at me about that asinine plagiarism crap?

the reasoning behind meeting Ziggy the clairvoyant who did tarot card readings on the side (lol, but true,) was from his affiliation with Duke University back decades before the time I met him.. at least this is what I remember him telling me, for all I know the reason he was still coming back to Raleigh in the winter time might have been besides playing GOOD gigs and working at the pawn shop was he might have still been working with Duke University, I did not monitor him like he was a child, Duke is in Durham but not that far from Raleigh, I went to Durham a few times but Durham, other than Duke U. is a "rough place".. Wake Forest is really cool.. I wish I could have stayed in Raleigh, but it has the highest cost of living in the U.S. and I was not a high paid scientist or something at the Research Park so decided to leave just for economic reasons.. no Missouri hillbilly minded people live anywhere close th that area.. loved it, but I tolerate all types pretty well, and the 5.23 acres I own with a house on it would financially been out of reach at least for an un educated non-seeker of wealth such as I..

I think Lynard is from Durham?

hey Etu, if you don't mind me asking, why do you use Baphomet as your moniker? is it just the flavor of the week for this thread?..lol

any objective person doing the smallest amount of research will discover that the word demon to the Greeks meant possession,
the quality of which of course had to be determined on a case by case bases.

the negative kind was 1st thought to be put forth by plato, not some malevolent church body.
might have been in reference to Alexander the great, who contrary to Greek philosophy and government, wrote back to Athens saying he wanted to be worshiped as a god,
they replied; if that what he wants, so let him.
a little context;
Parmenio the primary lieutenant general under Alexander, considered a particularly cruel and blood thirsty man, said of Alexander
" I could never pass his statue without shuddering"

lets be objective shall we
As much fun as the hellfire club was, it really not a useful source of information, unless you want learn how to shock a nun,
but every school boy knows how to do that.

so if you think about it, the use of the word demon or daemon is mostly prolific for possession, thru the koine
and would only have spiritual connotations for spiritual people, or superstitious people. how ever you wished to classify them.
of course most educated Romans and Greeks looked for natural causes for these qualities in people.
but educated people are rare, even these days.


Koine Greek (Greek): "the common dialect", also simply called koine "common [language]", or "Alexandrian dialect", "common Attic" or "Hellenistic Greek") is the universal dialect of the Greek language spoken throughout post-Classical antiquity (c. 300 BC ? AD 300), developing from the Attic dialect, with admixture of elements especially from Ionic

Except for the last 2000 years or so when it was understood to mean a spirit that had no good intent towards man.
the qualities of these spirits were very frightful to people, though in modern times we mostly associate these things with mental disorders.
it really depends on your spiritual philosophy
If you basically a Zoroastrian, you would see them as emissaries of darkness.
If you're more oriental pantheistic, you might see them as beneficial to some one even if that someone wasn't you.
The Greeks by the way, named every thing but but didn't really believe in a supernatural anything.
they believed that man was the measure of all things.
that's if you like the Greek idea.

Etu you like to refer back to more primordial times picking and choosing as you go, and discount the effect of modern time, probably because history and philosophy appears to dominated by the church.
I think that's a mistake really, to weight a certain time period in favor of another, when the only difference really is the exsistance of well established roman credit, oh and literacy.
with the possible exception that the father back you the more murky the records are, giving people the ability to dress them up pretty much in way that suits them.

without looking it up, I think the ancient Greeks even had an "unknown god" figurehead to cover all the bases if you will..

relying on memory only, I believe Baphomet has a sexually excited member going on all the time, but it is hard to make it out on your moniker Etu..LOL

Nah, I don't yell ^.^ It's just impolite to not give credit where credit is due! Musicians of all people should be weary of that

Sounds like an interesting book though. Perhaps one day I'll find time to read what wasn't already posted !

did you write this article? Or just borrowing it?
http://uncensoredhistoryoftheblues.purp ... devil.html

No Mike Rugel posted and got it out of the book Deep Blues, what's your point? Are you gonna yell at me about that asinine plagiarism crap?

You know you're right . . . but I just had be a terd about it

any objective person doing the smallest amount of research will discover that the word demon to the Greeks meant possession,
the quality of which of course had to be determined on a case by case bases.

the negative kind was 1st thought to be put forth by plato, not some malevolent church body.
might have been in reference to Alexander the great, who contrary to Greek philosophy and government, wrote back to Athens saying he wanted to be worshiped as a god,
they replied; if that what he wants, so let him.
a little context;
Parmenio the primary lieutenant general under Alexander, considered a particularly cruel and blood thirsty man, said of Alexander
" I could never pass his statue without shuddering"

lets be objective shall we
As much fun as the hellfire club was, it really not a useful source of information, unless you want learn how to shock a nun,
but every school boy knows how to do that.

Not sure where you got that from, but I would disagree.

The origins of the idea "daimon" are difficult to identify. The term is thought to have originated with the Greeks, by way of Latin?d?mon: "spirit", derived from Greek?daimon (gen. daimonos): "lesser god, guiding spirit, tutelary deity".[1]

For the Minoan (3000-1100 BC) and Mycenaean (1500-1100 BC), "daimons" were seen as attendants or servants to the deities, possessing spiritual power. Later, the term "daimon" was used by writers such as Homer (8th century BC), Hesiod, and Plato as a synonym for theos, or god. Some scholars, like van der Leeuw, suggest a distinction between the terms: whereas theos was the personification of a god (e.g. Zeus), daimon referred to something indeterminate, invisible, incorporeal, and unknown.[2]

The pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Empedocles (5th century BC) later employed the term in describing the psyche or soul. Similarly, those such as Plutarch (1st century AD) suggested a view of the daimon as being an amorphous mental phenomenon, an occasion of mortals to come in contact with a great spiritual power.[2]

The earliest pre-Christian conception of daimons or daimones also considered them ambiguous?not exclusively evil. But while daimons may have initially been seen as potentially good and evil, constructive and destructive, left to each man to relate to?the term eventually came to embody a purely evil connotation, with Xenocrates perhaps being one of the first to popularize this colloquial use.[2]

Some modern interpreters have returned to a more traditional understanding of the term. For example, the psychologist Rollo May conceives of the daimonic as a primal force of nature which contains both constructive and destructive potentialities, but ultimately seeks to promote totality of the self

FROM WIKI!!!! OK!!!