General Music Chat

They used to have a place Downtown called the Old Buffalo , had bands like Moonpie, Big Sonny and the Lowboys, City, those were the days. good to see something is going on there.

Went to Andress HS in 74-76

Hangman rocks dude

I think it's a win, just as long as you pursue it aggressively and you make sure they are doing this right.

You're talking about $12.50, and you're going to put my song in the rotation for a month. However, if, after a week, I ask one of the staff members (under the presumption of wanting to buy the CD) and they can't tell me whose album it is, or the band name, then I want my money back for that month. I want that agreement in writing.

RETAIL MARKUP:

In the meantime, to make the CD's work for you, all you have to do is operate under a little Retail Markup 101. In other words, if you would normally sell your CD's (which apparently haven't all sold) for $10, then you'll simply have about ten CD's there available at $15.00, of which you would get $7.50, or 75% of what you'd normally get as opposed to 50%.

It's not like you're giving them exclusivity over the CD sales, so you can sell them wherever you want at whatever price you want, and you also control how much of your inventory you give them, so I don't see what the problem is.

Ultimately, if you don't have a label, you decide how much you're going to get out of your own CD's, regardless of what the price is. Give it two months and if you haven't sold any, pull out of the deal and you've only lost $25 anyway. Who knows? Maybe you'll sell 4-5 a month (or more) and the thing pays for itself, makes you a couple bucks, and gets your name out there better.

Good points but at the end of the day, there seems to be absolutely no Value to the deal at all for the Musician, who's interest is not only sales, but the general labor and cost of production. All the venue offers is a crusty basket by a cash register...to collect cash for something he didn't even lift a finger toward. I guess he does so because as the controller of that grease spot on the side walk...he can... Beyond that its completely worthless and does nothing whatsoever to advance the musician's interests. ... Puleeeze! Its just plain annoying....

You are right tho...this is only a problem for folks who cant move their CD's any other way... and if that's the case maybe the artists should offer to pay the patrons for each cd they take off their hand? LOL!

Hmmm....I'm a little conflicted, PaperDog.

Basically, when it comes to the costs of putting together an album that you are trying to sell, manufacturing itself is actually usually going to be less than Recording/Miixng/Mastering, and can be alleviated even mo0re by bulk manufacturing.

In other words, you know how much already went into recording/mixing/mastering, because there has to be recording/mixing/mastering for there to even be one CD. However, if we put the recording/mixing/mastering at an extremely conservative $3,000, it's a given that you will not sell one CD for $3,000 or more.

In this case, basic Algebra must come into play because, by necessity, your cost per CD goes down with the number of CD's you manufacture, but your overall cost, by necessity, goes up.

The RMM is completed at this time. That money is gone, so you have to do a realistic appraisal of how many CD's you will sell, how many you think you might give away...etc....to decide how many CD's you want to have manufactured.

Oh, I forgot to mention artwork, but you get the idea.

Just for the Hell of it, let's say that it costs a flat $2.50 to manufacture each individual CD. Obviously, this will go down (bulk deal) if you are manufaturing a shitload of CD's, but we'll just go with that for now.

We're now going to figure out two numbers. We're going to figure out a break-even point based upon a price of $7.50/unit, in terms of CD's manufactured (with each one sold at $7.50) and figure out potential profit with selling the CD's at $10.00/Unit.

If you make 500 CD's:

$3,000 (Fixed Costs) + (2.50 * 500) = $7.50 * 500

$4,250 = $3,750

*** By only making 500 CD's, $7.50/Unit is not your break-even point. Let's try six-hundred, since you have to order manufacture in increments of 100...

$3,000 + (2.50 * 600) = 7.5 * 600

$4,500 = $4,500

***If it costs you $4,500 to produce 600 CD's, and you sell them at $7.50/apiece (assuming noone is being paid to sell them) you will break even.

-Okay. Now let's say that you are going to sell the CD's, actually, for $10.00, but you've allocated thirty of them to giveaway or keep for yourselves:

3,000 + (2.50 * 600) = 10 * 570

$4,500 = $5,700

***In this case, if you sell 570 CD's, you will see a profit of $1,200.

NOTES:

-Any profits that a small band will see on CD sales are generally going to be seen over a long period of time because it is highly unlikely that all of the CD's will sell on the day that they are made.

-Determining a break even price ($7.90, based on 570 CD's) is necessary because you then know not to sell a CD for less than that under any circumstances.

-Therefore, if you wanted to use the offer made by that cafe', then you would want to make sure they are selling your CD's for $15.80, as opposed to $10, because you then meet your break even goal of $7.90, and it also serves to get your name out there. I would consider the $12.50/month as, "Promoting Expense," and not account for it at all with the cost of the CD's.

WHAT I WOULD DO:

For what you are suggesting you are getting for this, "Half," PaperDog, I agree with you that it is fairly unreasonable. I have no problem, of course, with the CD's sitting in a basket by the cash register, as I knew some guys from a Metal Band that sold 400 CD's JUST OUT OF A TATTOO SHOP IN A YEAR this way, and the tattoo shop got $3.00 of every CD.

Simple, they said, we'll just raise the price of the CD $3.00 and see who buys it.

Personally, I would try to negotiate with the venue. I would suggest that I name the price for which they sell the CD, and, in exchange, they get $2.00-$3.00 for every CD they sell. You can even make it a graduated scale, for instance, if you sell 0-50 of our CD's in three months you get $2.00/CD, if you sell 50-100, you get $2.50/CD, and if you sell 101+, you will get $3.00/CD.

Having an arrangement such as that, if possible, turns the tables on the venue and might even encourage them to have staff push your CD's more. In the meantime, instead of selling your CD for the usual $10.00, you can sell it for either $12 remembering that, even after paying the commission, you're still well-above your break-even point.

Mark this topic as spam

No its not spam... I am actively engaged with this venue and a lot of the local beatniks are upset about the 50% part of it.

Fine! Sign me up! And I haven't seen a beatnik since the Johnson administration.

Read the following . It's from a coffee house venue . Personally I think this is a case of greed and I give them about another 3 mo before they fold or change their strategy...But tell me what you guys think? The following was a notice posted to some of our local musicians.

Music has always been a vital component of The Percolator's ambiance and nightlife. Life at the Perc just wouldn't be the same without local talented bands and musicians. For this very reason we present to you percRADIO. A new way for local music to be heard and discovered. 2012 Launch Special Dont miss out on our s...pecial for the month of January! 50% off on any of the packages below! Basic Package Only $7.50 a month for one song that will be played on our facebook page $5 for any additional song Premium Package Only $12.50 a month for one song that will be played on our facebook page and insde The Percolator throughout the day $6 for any additional song CD SALES Artist may choose to sell their CD's at The Percolator. CD's must have cover art and some type of packaging. The sale will be split 50/50 with the venue. Price your CD's accordingly. **Contact us for details Contact info is in the "Info" tab to the left of our facebook page

that's just dumb. How many of you go to facebook and sit there listening to music? Have you ever bought a CD because of it? How many people would this place hold if they were full...and how many of those people are "buyers"?


They ask waaaaay too much for "airplay" and I think that is backwards. Aren't they supposed to pay musicians whose music they use to attract an audience???


50% of sales is actually better than you'll get from a large chain bookstore...and they ain't that. Still....it wouldn't hurt to have a few disks there if you play there sometimes.

Honestly it doesnt sound like that bad of a deal to me, I wouldnt expect to sell many at this place, but heck just try it for 3 monthes and see what happens, hell maybe some rich dude will sign you up from hearing it there.

This is just a business equation and they are renting you space and letting it play in there business.

A major label deal would pay you anywhere from 2.5% to 15% of net sales.

Good Luck if you try it. If you dont you just never know.

Seems to me if you had a CD and you were
trying to sell it, you would be out playing as
much as you could to promote the CD and
yourself. A folding card table with a tye-dyed
sheet over it, with your CD, pictures of yourself,
download cards, t-shirts a merch table. And if
you can get a good looking gal to run it, even better.

This merch table should be with you at every venue
you play. The owner or the manager shouldn't get
a dime off the merch. The merch table is just part
of your act, not theirs.

Internet radio? What a bunch of bullsh#t, they advertise
here on craigslist "Wanted musicians and comedians for
their internet radio station. They're not worth my time
you probably get more internet exposure right here on
the BM forum.

Seems to me if you had a CD and you were
trying to sell it, you would be out playing as
much as you could to promote the CD and
yourself. A folding card table with a tye-dyed
sheet over it, with your CD, pictures of yourself,
download cards, t-shirts a merch table. And if
you can get a good looking gal to run it, even better.

This merch table should be with you at every venue
you play. The owner or the manager shouldn't get
a dime off the merch. The merch table is just part
of your act, not theirs.

Internet radio? What a bunch of bullsh#t, they advertise
here on craigslist "Wanted musicians and comedians for
their internet radio station. They're not worth my time
you probably get more internet exposure right here on
the BM forum.

LD, that is exactly what Head East was doing when we opened for them. good looking girl included!

Speaking of internet radio, X-m radio has a new promotion they sent me in the mail. All I have to do is Turn on my Satellite Radio and it comes on for free. For 2 weeks. After the two week period they will bill me full price for a six month subscription- automatically, because I've been a customer before and they have my bank account number. I cancelled my subscription a year ago because they raped my account of three months subscription three weeks before it was due. If that wasn't enough, it was many calls to Hapu or Etu or what ever his name was in India to get my money put back into my account after cancelling. It took about two months after promis after promis they had returned the money. Now, let's say I'm out back splitting wood, turn my radio on, with my little Jack Russell-Abbey, who jumps in and out of my 4Runner and hits the button that changes it from fm to Xm radio. I will automatically be billed by these hacks. Ain't technology wonderful?

I love Head East Mr Haley here's
my favorite song by them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwQFnOvuyYY

Speaking of internet radio, X-m radio has a new promotion they sent me in the mail. All I have to do is Turn on my Satellite Radio and it comes on for free. For 2 weeks. After the two week period they will bill me full price for a six month subscription- automatically, because I've been a customer before and they have my bank account number. I cancelled my subscription a year ago because they raped my account of three months subscription three weeks before it was due. If that wasn't enough, it was many calls to Hapu or Etu or what ever his name was in India to get my money put back into my account after cancelling. It took about two months after promis after promis they had returned the money. Now, let's say I'm out back splitting wood, turn my radio on, with my little Jack Russell-Abbey, who jumps in and out of my 4Runner and hits the button that changes it from fm to Xm radio. I will automatically be billed by these hacks. Ain't technology wonderful?

Dude, As a n Apps Developer, I made the mistake of purchasing a small tool from a firm in India.. Biggest mistake of my life... It did not deliver what was expected, and it was like pulling teeth to get them to honor their refund policy. Fortunately I have a Business CC with a very powerful global bank, which I had used for the online purchase. I just simply registered my complaint with the CC... I got my refund immediately and the bank went on to collect from that firm... ANd...Its not uncommon for such firms to get squashed out of business soon after.)

Hmmm....I'm a little conflicted, PaperDog.

Personally, I would try to negotiate with the venue. I would suggest that I name the price for which they sell the CD, and, in exchange, they get $2.00-$3.00 for every CD they sell. You can even make it a graduated scale, for instance, if you sell 0-50 of our CD's in three months you get $2.00/CD, if you sell 50-100, you get $2.50/CD, and if you sell 101+, you will get $3.00/CD.

Having an arrangement such as that, if possible, turns the tables on the venue and might even encourage them to have staff push your CD's more. In the meantime, instead of selling your CD for the usual $10.00, you can sell it for either $12 remembering that, even after paying the commission, you're still well-above your break-even point.

Holy Moly Pierce! Proof that Cost Accounting DOES stay with us , even years later after college!

FYI.
Sunk Costs serve as consideration typically when a business faces a "Buy/Build or Fly risk " decision. Beyond that they are a lost cause and moot.

The 4k investment in a CD is a "Capital Layout" and fixed costs typically apply if you "own and operate (hence pay for) " the studio that you produce the CD in. My only fixed cost in the venture is the equipment I purchased ( Pre-Salvage book value) and the variable cost for the assembly of the CD. I can merge the two expenses to distribute or spread that cost over volume of cds.

The Venues' Cost to operate is irrelevant to my CD production costs... Having said that, what remains is the relationship of the venue's cost to "promote my cd" vs. My cost to produce my CD. Since, in this case, The venue is not a bonafide professional promoter, the venue is not in much of (if any) position to offer real value in our agreement. The venue cannot guarantee any outcome, nor can it reliably project revenues as a result of its perceived efforts. Technically, the venue cant offer significant "consideration" in the agreement (Dont even get me started on Contract Law). That amounts to a whole lot of nothing expense, to be demanding 50% off my CD, just for sitting by the venue's cash register.

Negotiation is always a possibility...and i get the impression they might be willing/maybe forced to...after they get spanked by the locals for their silly ideas... (BTW Not a bad suggestion on your part, the way you broke it down...)

The 4k investment in a CD is a "Capital Layout" and fixed costs typically apply if you "own and operate (hence pay for) " the studio that you produce the CD in. My only fixed cost in the venture is the equipment I purchased ( Pre-Salvage book value) and the variable cost for the assembly of the CD. I can merge the two expenses to distribute or spread that cost over volume of cds.

I understand what you're saying, I shouldn't have used the term Fixed Cost in an accounting sense like that, when I meant it, really, in an Economics sense.

Basically, all I meant was that all kinds of stuff has to happen before the manufacturing can happen. When that stuff happens, it gets paid for, and there's no getting that money back, regardless of what you sell. Therefore, the costs are fixed in the Economical and Algebraic sense (where number of CD's produced and price to be charged for the CD's are the only variables) but not so much in the accounting sense.

The Venues' Cost to operate is irrelevant to my CD production costs... Having said that, what remains is the relationship of the venue's cost to "promote my cd" vs. My cost to produce my CD. Since, in this case, The venue is not a bonafide professional promoter, the venue is not in much of (if any) position to offer real value in our agreement. The venue cannot guarantee any outcome, nor can it reliably project revenues as a result of its perceived efforts. Technically, the venue cant offer significant "consideration" in the agreement (Dont even get me started on Contract Law). That amounts to a whole lot of nothing expense, to be demanding 50% off my CD, just for sitting by the venue's cash register.

1.) I think the first part just comes down to general accounting preference. I wouldn't account for the promotion of the CD as actual CD costs, unless I was having new CD's manufactured specifically for that venue, and in this case, I wouldn't be doing that. Therefore, my expense journal on CD Production/Manufacture has been balanced and closed, (possibly for a year) so I don't want to re-open that journal. That's why I would account for it as straight, "Promotion expense," because the promotions journal (while balanced occasionally) is something that never gets closed...unless the band dissolves.

2.) I don't think the venue is holding itself out as a professional promoter, I doubt you would get a professional promoter at $12.50/month, but I still would consider it as, "Promotion expense," because I'd already have a journal for that. I guess you could just put it in the, "General expense," journal if you want to...

3.) You've already projected the revenues on your CD's, but not from this specific transaction. You don't have to because, if the promoter sells 0 CD's, then there's no expense concerning the CD's in and of themselves.

4.) I also don't consider the 50% an, "Expense," in any sense of the term. Anything derived would simply be, "Album Revenue," regardless of what the band gets for the CD's. If you get half of $15.00 and sell 10 CD's that way, you would just account for it as, "CD Revenue 10 copies @ $7.50 = $75.00." It wouldn't even affect the Liabilties or Expenses, just inventory, cash and Owner's Equity. That would be offset by, "Promotion Expense," which is actually a seperate transaction to begin with...

Negotiation is always a possibility...and i get the impression they might be willing/maybe forced to...after they get spanked by the locals for their silly ideas... (BTW Not a bad suggestion on your part, the way you broke it down...)

Thank you for the compliment.

My assumption is, given that they're asking for half, that they're expecting everything to either be singles or EP's anyway, and not necessarily LP's. If that is the case, then the 50% kind of makes sense because you wouldn't normally charge very much for an EP to begin with, so the band would just double the usual price.

Waste of money, ripoff. Do they PAY musicians who perform there? Or do you have to perform there gratis? Or worse, do you have to pay them to perform there? Doesn't sound like a lot of money but there's places to spend a little more and get WAY MORE exposure worldwide.

Any cd I've ever wanted but couldn't find, I could order through Best Buy and have it delivered at my door in 2 days. Remastered, and most times about 14 hits, as in greatest hits or essentials from the masters for about 8 bucks. Compete with that! And, Good luck with that.