General Music Chat

I've hears this many times, but this fellow says it best.
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http://www.scribd.com/doc/78468650/La-Club-Owners
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Great article, about 5 -10 min of reading.
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Why it's in a club's best interest to pay bands good money.

Heard all those arguments before. The problem is, there are way more bands than any region can use. It's a club owner's job to put butts in seats, regardless of the method. So if the owner knows that band XYZ will bring in 50 people consistently and will work for the door or a percent of the bar while your band charges a flat rate for the night and doesn't bring many people, guess who he's going to book? Sure the club should advertise and try to get people in the door, but he probably won't if he can make it your responsibility. As a musician I like to get paid for my efforts, but I sure don't expect it; playing music is my hobby, not my profession so getting paid is a bonus. My real payment is the satisfaction I get from playing good music and putting smiles on people's faces.

Thanks for that. I actually shared the link on my FB page.

The best bars, clubs and restaurants do get it. They generate a loyal following of regular local customers who know it is a great place to hang out and listen to excellent live music. The club owners job is to get them in the door and sell food and drinks. The bands job is to make it fun, keep them there longer so the bar sells a lot more drinks.

A club that requires you to bring in 25 people is a dead club with no business plan and no regular customers. Why would anyone want to play there?

Places that feature original music are quite a bit different than clubs that only have cover bands. Usually they don't have a full service menu or the niceties that the other clubs have. They usually will have 3-4 bands in a night, and the bands are paid based on their draw (after the soundman is paid). For example, I predict 100-150 will be at the club I'm playing tonight. Out of these, 25 will be the bands and their wives. Another 20 are regulars who arrive before they start charging cover. This means 55-100 paying customers at $5 a head, or $275-500 gross. From this. $75 is pulled out for the soundman. Now we're down to $200-425 with which to pay the bands. If each band were to bring the same number of people the pay would be $50-105 per band! If you don't like it there are 50 bands lined up to take your place. These are the facts of life.

In my area the clubs that actually have a set pay for all bands, tend to be the lowest paying in the area, but they have a reputation for having a consistent crowd the pay is consistent so most bands love to play there.



We have a couple of clubs we play, one pays us a flat $600, the other gives us $150 to setup, then we get the door, minus $40 for the doorman. This particular venue we have always made more than $600. Ussually in the 7-800 range.


In the end if you can deliver people to a venue, you should get more money than the bands that dont bring people, the place we pull 7-800 in, Ive gone in there on a sat night to book gigs for my band and there would only be 20-30 people in there, those guys were not making anything more than the base $150, and some are decent bands, not bad sounding and glad to get the gigs.

In the end we are in a very competitive business.

In my area a band can get 3-400 on weekend nights, a couple of years ago we were playing almost one night a weekend and we just decided to raise our price, sure we play less gigs, but we are just weekend warriors anyway, and when we do play out we take home individually more in one night than most of the guys I know playing make in two or three.

It is what it is!

We've talked about this many times. It's a festering, infected sore spot with me. One thing for sure is that venue owners NEVER consider the amount of time it takes to do a gig. I'm on the clock when I start loading the equipment in my vehicle and punch out my time card when I'm back home, completely unloaded. Usually that's an 8 hour shift. Minimum wage is $7.50 per hour? At the minimum each band member should get paid $10/hour considering minimum and gas prices. At the least, a venue should have that minimum pay for bands. Paying above and beyond that only makes sense. Better bands attract more people, hold more people, and EARN MORE PROFIT for the venue.

By your standards Bob, I get $150 for 8 hours of work, thats $18.75 an hour not too bad I dont guess.

But still there are too many bars and bands willing to do it or pay nothing, I just crack up when some bar owner calls me and wants our band, then says can you come in next wed, play for free so I can see what your draw is. Theres just to many folks willing to do that over and over again.

It is competition, no matter what, and its tough in bar land in my area, they are looking for the cheapest cost entertainment they can get.

I would hate to be trying to get a band started these days, in fact I dont think i would attempt it going thru all the free demos and all that to get one going, I will leave that for the younger musicians!



I will give all of you guys a little hint at a way to make money at gigs, if you have a good group of friends that are willing to stack enough money together to hire your band then go talk to a bar to have thier party in, let anyone else that shows up come in free.

Our last gig was this way, two folks that have seen us over and over again, hired us, not the venue, so we got paid whether it was 10 or 150, they booked the room and we played, turned out to be one of the better gigs weve had in a while.

In fact from that gig, a couple of club owners have called from that area and said that people in thier bar wanted to see us, so I said get them to pool thier money and hire us and use your bar. I havent booked another one yet, but I think this is the approach we may take for a while.

On getting paid think outside the box, this is just an idea, if you have a bunch of friends then you might get them to pass the hat ahead of the gig, then get a room and do your gig, that takes a lot of pressure off.

Another idea for getting paid, think if there is some business friend that might sponsor a gig, the big outfits do this all of the time think of the Rolling Stones and American Express.


Find a local business to sponsor your gig and advertise for them.

At one time a few years ago I had a car dealership and a bike dealership that paid us to advertise for them it was a pretty good deal for a bit, other than the car dealer wound up closing and the bike shop guy had a divorce and basically quit.


Theres a lot of ways to make money with your band, not just having your hand out to a club owner.

I Can see both sides pretty clearly...

If I were a club owner, just by default...I'm selling alcohol and somewhat, an ambiance... I'd add a band in there for posterity...keep it mixed up for the patrons, but I wouldn't be banking on any band to 'make my business work' If the only business I can attract in my club, was strictly from the bands that I hired...then I should just probably quit the business...


If I were actively gigging, the only real leverage I could bring with me and 'sell' for a price...would be the guarantee that I could get patrons to dance till they sweat, and then get them thirsty...That's it... Even though I don't gig (for now) I know that "most" club owners don't really give a sh*t if a band is actually 'good'...what they want is to get patrons to stay thirsty. When you think about it...a band is sort of like an amusing treadmill, for the club owners.

I'd say, if a club draws 50 people a night, and a band reliably can bring in 50 more people ...There is a quantifiable cost that can be worked out, and the band and the club should consider a flat compensation for a flat block of time...for the cost of 50 patrons

Then, if the Band strts bringing in 75 patrons...that fee should be adjusted accordingly.

Paper, sadly I understand what you say about adjusting accordingly, but I havent seen that happen very often.

As I said aboce certain places in my area have a set schedule of live music, in my area they pay around $300 per night doesnt matter who you are. We thought it would be a great place for us to play, we had fans int he area that frequented the place, so I got a gig, the first one was on a thursday night, a night we dont normally play, but to get a weekend gig we had to do a thursday, we had very good crowd that stayed all night with us, spent a lot of money, the waitress's were happy, the bartenders, the kitchen.

So then we get a sat night gig, which is all we want anyway. The place gets so packed that they cant let people in anymore, some folks came from a long ways away to see us and actually got turned away at the door. So Im all happy about this gig, I talk to the manager about getting more money or at least getting our bar tabs comped or discounted. No go on either, he says when we hire new bands we put you on a 6-12 month probation period to see what you can do, so I book another gig about 4 monthes out, between that and our other two shows it would have been a 7 month period.

We do another sat show, the same thing happens its packed to the gills, we normally run around the crowd but there are so many people that we cant even get off the little bittty stage.

I know this place between cover charge, food, drinks has had a 4-5,000 dollar night, so Im stoked again. The guy still wont budge in anyway.

So we decided it wasnt worth our time anymore to play this place, and we brought fans every time we were there.

So I can tell you from experience, if you get out playing and play for free or the door, in that venue you will more than likely always play for that price, they dont even comprehend a raise.

I think a bands focus should be to build a reliable fan base that will support them over and over again. If you can bring 50-100 people into a club with you every time you play you might have a little leverage. I said might.

I worked my ass off on this for about 3 years with my band, everyone continues to offer the same thing, we are established, have a pretty good draw, have people asking for us, yet they want to still pay us the same as everyone else.

All I can say is get out there and start doing it and you will se what Im talking about, we can discuss this on here til we are blue in the face but until youve gotten into your vehicle and visited 20-30 bars asking for a gig, you have no idea what you are up against.

Its funny I think I could print up a business card saying that i was a doctor and go into a bar and get folks to call me or refer me faster, than they will believe that i can play 3 chords and get people to dance.

For you cover guys starting out. I know you want to play your pet songs, but if you get a gig and apying patrons start leaving before youve finished your first set, in other words if you cant hold an audience and get them dancing and stuff, then you really need to look at the songs you play. I know people dont want to play the old standards, but if you dont have these in your arsenal of songs, you may be playing to a lot of empty rooms.

Good Luck and I know Im rambling this morning

Paper, sadly I understand what you say about adjusting accordingly, but I havent seen that happen very often.

As I said aboce certain places in my area have a set schedule of live music, in my area they pay around $300 per night doesnt matter who you are. We thought it would be a great place for us to play, we had fans int he area that frequented the place, so I got a gig, the first one was on a thursday night, a night we dont normally play, but to get a weekend gig we had to do a thursday, we had very good crowd that stayed all night with us, spent a lot of money, the waitress's were happy, the bartenders, the kitchen.

So then we get a sat night gig, which is all we want anyway. The place gets so packed that they cant let people in anymore, some folks came from a long ways away to see us and actually got turned away at the door. So Im all happy about this gig, I talk to the manager about getting more money or at least getting our bar tabs comped or discounted. No go on either, he says when we hire new bands we put you on a 6-12 month probation period to see what you can do, so I book another gig about 4 monthes out, between that and our other two shows it would have been a 7 month period.

We do another sat show, the same thing happens its packed to the gills, we normally run around the crowd but there are so many people that we cant even get off the little bittty stage.

I know this place between cover charge, food, drinks has had a 4-5,000 dollar night, so Im stoked again. The guy still wont budge in anyway.

So we decided it wasnt worth our time anymore to play this place, and we brought fans every time we were there.

So I can tell you from experience, if you get out playing and play for free or the door, in that venue you will more than likely always play for that price, they dont even comprehend a raise.

I think a bands focus should be to build a reliable fan base that will support them over and over again. If you can bring 50-100 people into a club with you every time you play you might have a little leverage. I said might.

I worked my ass off on this for about 3 years with my band, everyone continues to offer the same thing, we are established, have a pretty good draw, have people asking for us, yet they want to still pay us the same as everyone else.

All I can say is get out there and start doing it and you will se what Im talking about, we can discuss this on here til we are blue in the face but until youve gotten into your vehicle and visited 20-30 bars asking for a gig, you have no idea what you are up against.

Its funny I think I could print up a business card saying that i was a doctor and go into a bar and get folks to call me or refer me faster, than they will believe that i can play 3 chords and get people to dance.

For you cover guys starting out. I know you want to play your pet songs, but if you get a gig and apying patrons start leaving before youve finished your first set, in other words if you cant hold an audience and get them dancing and stuff, then you really need to look at the songs you play. I know people dont want to play the old standards, but if you dont have these in your arsenal of songs, you may be playing to a lot of empty rooms.

Good Luck and I know Im rambling this morning

Its all Good JW... ANd everything you said makes sense... It also reinforces my suspician about how Club-owners view bands... It seems they are viewed as dispensable 'tools' of the club-trade.

That's the gross disadvantage...Clubs are an "institution" and bands are part of that institution's fixtures and furnishings... Under this configuration, nothing will ever change for the benefit of musicians... .


Now, the big Q, .We know the institution in this case is an alchol vendor,,,and nothing else. It would crack me up to see a reputable band tell a venue that it could go fluck itself .."We'll be playing across the street tonight, and they offer Hookah pipes and pizza...

But the legend of the rent was way hard-core!!!



Making money in the short term means doing whatever it takes to get into venues where people find out who you are.

The way to make money long term is to be who you are and nothing else. It takes a lot more work to be be original, but once you get good at presenting that, you sell CDs and the sky is the limit.

Then it won't matter what the venue is paying, or even if they pay, because you'll be able to add to that from people wanting to take your music with them.

You can start doing house concerts & parties, making much more than bars will ever pay. Do it because you love to play and pass the hat. It all balances out in the big picture.

Right on Mr Yod.

Paperdog I'd rather play there, I'll
have a bowl of homegrown, and a
large spinach with portabellos and
a Dasani.

But the legend of the rent was way hard-core!!!



Making money in the short term means doing whatever it takes to get into venues where people find out who you are.

The way to make money long term is to be who you are and nothing else. It takes a lot more work to be be original, but once you get good at presenting that, you sell CDs and the sky is the limit.

Then it won't matter what the venue is paying, or even if they pay, because you'll be able to add to that from people wanting to take your music with them.

You can start doing house concerts & parties, making much more than bars will ever pay. Do it because you love to play and pass the hat. It all balances out in the big picture.

Yes that seems to make the most sense...