General Music Chat

Playing satans advocate for a moment.

What good is a decibel meter if ...

Not referenced to the ear / feel of performance

And everyone's reference point as to "appropriate volume" is different.

Referencing a standard tuning for instrumentation is a quality issue as is the feel of the performance.
Feel is volume ... or more accurately IMO the amount of air being pushed by the band.


Thoughts ?

I will revisit this.

Volume is relevant to where you are playing at and who you are playing for.

My band has used DB meters and its a great thing to be aware of, over the last couple of years I havent used one, our pa will handle quite a few people, Im back running it myself and I just set it for the venue.

If you are playing a place where people expect to be able to talk over the music then you have to respect that, if you are playing a place like say Jimmy Dangers band the Farleys plays Im sure its a higher volume atmosphere, in these higher volume venues the patrons expect it to be loud, so being to quiet there can be a disadvantage.

In my case Ive learned our pa, I set up the amp section to match what I feel a room deserves.

I have a certain range on the main output that i maintain at our regular gig, recently we played a place that expected more volume plus its quite a bit bigger so I opened it up more.

So I think you have to decide what matches your venue is what should be your guide.

When I was younger we always basically got all the volume levels we could out of our amps and pa regardless of where we played, in short we would get the level to the point of feedback and then tweak it back just a hair no matter where we played, looking back this was a very stupid move and alienated a lot of people.

I did play briefly with a casino band and yes they have db meters that they measure you with, if your too loud you either turn it down or get out, in this situation after my first gig I quit taking an amp, just plugged a preamp in the pa system and that way no matter where the volume was it was set by the sound guy not me, I didnt like this situation to well, cause it seemed we were just back ground music, but that is the rule in that situation, plus they paid a little more than regular clubs so if you want that money then you have to play by the rules.

I just think it comes down to common sense, if people in a venue are telling you that your too loud, then you should listen and adjust accordingly, if you arent loud enough then adjust accordingly.

With todays amp technologys, its not about getting an amp up to the sweet spot, I can get my tone at any volume level, with either a big amp or a small amp.

Back to the original thread, I think that you have to be able to hear your singer sing, not some guy screaming his guts out, unless that is the kind of music you are playing, everyone including the drummer, needs to get their volume to where you can hear the singer comfortably and he or she also, if you are overblowing your singer, then they will have a hard time finishing a long night. Stage wise a good comfortable level where you hear everyone should be the goal, a band is a team, you shouldnt be competeing with each other for sonic space, you should be complementing your band mates, and if your waking up every morning after a gig hearing crickets in your ears, then trust one whos been there, you are too damn loud.

Back to db meters some venues 90 db can be too loud, some 110 db maybe too quiet, learn to know where you are playing and what is expected and you will get asked back.


Good Luck

As usual, very good common sense advice John. Yes, the places we play cater to people who are there for the music and not to talk, etc. So we do play at a louder volume than a cover band might play at. Another thing is that all the places we play have their own PA and soundman so the volume issue is mostly out of our hands.

Lynard

"Is this site (bandmix) all computer programmers
and praise team musicians? "


A) I used to be but when I started drinkin' I had to switch to project management

B) No. Although i agree with Martin Luther in that any thing a Christian workman does well honors God.

And i think, in some wierd sort of way, that includes work product like my own soon to be played in elevators near you, "Gunman's Bitch."

Talbot

As usual, very good common sense advice John. Yes, the places we play cater to people who are there for the music and not to talk, etc. So we do play at a louder volume than a cover band might play at. Another thing is that all the places we play have their own PA and soundman so the volume issue is mostly out of our hands.

Thats the key, COMMON SENSE, why do so many musicians lack COMMON SENSE when it comes to things like volume?

LOL, Im being sarcastic, I used to be that guy that hurt everyones ears within earshot!

Im getting better!

Talk during our set ?

Talk during our set ?

Never! I come to listen...maybe dance... Either way...to have fun . But seriously, there are some bands out there that are trying to make it a point to bust ear drums... Why... Is that the cover they use to hide the fact that they suck?

Talk during our set ?

Never! I come to listen...maybe dance... Either way...to have fun . But seriously, there are some bands out there that are trying to make it a point to bust ear drums... Why... Is that the cover they use to hide the fact that they suck?

Many just don't get it.

I know I have relayed the story about the young guitarist with the ORANGE full stack that played with one of the bands at a show where I was doing sound.
I tried and tried to get that silly f**k to understand no one could hear their singer, to no avail.
I / we all moved back ( thank goodness we were outdoors ) and could not wait for them to finish up.

As usual, very good common sense advice John. Yes, the places we play cater to people who are there for the music and not to talk, etc. So we do play at a louder volume than a cover band might play at. Another thing is that all the places we play have their own PA and soundman so the volume issue is mostly out of our hands.

I've had that problem before. We were playing at a venue that had its own PA and soundman and midway through the first set some guy came over and yelled, "I caaaaan't hear youuuuu," but he was definitely intoxicated, had a weird smirk on his face...and...I think...blew a raspberry at me so I didn't take him too seriously.

During intermission, we're all hanging out around the bar drinking soda/pop and more than a few people came up and said to the effect, "You guys sound fine, but I can't hear you singing."

I replied, "You're very fortunate."

Nevertheless, I went up to the soundman and said, "Nobody can hear me singing."

He replied, "Oh."

I asked, "Do you plan to do anything about it?"

"Nope."

Well, we just went up and played. I couldn't really usurp his equipment, and the manager wasn't there for me to complain to, he just left our money under the till and told the bartender to pay us at intermission...so what else could we do but just play if the soundman was uncooperative?

Peirce

A said story and every musician has 'em. We are pond scum and except for a very elite few (who work VERY hard) most of us end up taking a loss overall for playing.

Not complaining mind you...

Talbot

Playing satans advocate for a moment.

What good is a decibel meter if ...

Not referenced to the ear / feel of performance
And everyone's reference point as to "appropriate volume" is different.

Referencing a standard tuning for instrumentation is a quality issue as is the feel of the performance.
Feel is volume ... or more accurately IMO the amount of air being pushed by the band.

Thoughts ?

Good Question and here's some good explanations: Keep in Mind the Human Hearing range is 20 -20Khz. Note the top 5 db levels in the list below... Clubs with DJs are culpabale in hearing damage. This is followed by Live bands (By performers who think its somehow 'cool' to thrash the hearing of their audiences). The truth be told, Its why I cant stand to go to clubs to listen to live bands... I'd rather just buy their Cds...

Decibels (dB(A)) Exposure level Common noise sources
140 Harmful to hearing Jet engine 25m away; Shotgun blast
130 Threshold of pain Jet takeoff 100m away
120 Disco; Propeller aircraft
110 Possible hearing loss Live band; Jet takeoff 600m away
100 Electric mower; Pneumatic drill; Tractor
90 Open top car ride on motorway; Food blender; Heavy traffic 5m away
80 Very noisy Alarm clock; Sink garbage disposal
70 Upper limit for hearing conversation Vacuum cleaner; Private car
60 Conversation at 1m; Singing birds
50 Quiet Light traffic 30m away; Quiet office
40 Dripping tap; Library
30 Very quiet Soft whisper at 5m
20 Broadcasting studio
10 Leaves rustling
0 Threshold of hearing

Playing satans advocate for a moment.

What good is a decibel meter if ...

Not referenced to the ear / feel of performance
And everyone's reference point as to "appropriate volume" is different.

Referencing a standard tuning for instrumentation is a quality issue as is the feel of the performance.
Feel is volume ... or more accurately IMO the amount of air being pushed by the band.

Thoughts ?

Good Question and here's some good explanations: Keep in Mind the Human Hearing range is 20 -20Khz. Note the top 5 db levels in the list below... Clubs with DJs are culpabale in hearing damage. This is followed by Live bands (By performers who think its somehow 'cool' to thrash the hearing of their audiences). The truth be told, Its why I cant stand to go to clubs to listen to live bands... I'd rather just buy their Cds...

Decibels (dB(A)) Exposure level Common noise sources
140 Harmful to hearing Jet engine 25m away; Shotgun blast
130 Threshold of pain Jet takeoff 100m away
120 Disco; Propeller aircraft
110 Possible hearing loss Live band; Jet takeoff 600m away
100 Electric mower; Pneumatic drill; Tractor
90 Open top car ride on motorway; Food blender; Heavy traffic 5m away
80 Very noisy Alarm clock; Sink garbage disposal
70 Upper limit for hearing conversation Vacuum cleaner; Private car
60 Conversation at 1m; Singing birds
50 Quiet Light traffic 30m away; Quiet office
40 Dripping tap; Library
30 Very quiet Soft whisper at 5m
20 Broadcasting studio
10 Leaves rustling
0 Threshold of hearing

Fu*k the decibel meter ... if you can't hear ALL members of the band clearly, how can you have a musical conversation with each other ... that's what music is IMHO ... otherwise you have your head up you ass (wanking) playing notes to a song and missing all the finer points that make it music.

Being loud ... that's what the front of house is for ....

I will revisit this.

Volume is relevant to where you are playing at and who you are playing for.

My band has used DB meters and its a great thing to be aware of, over the last couple of years I havent used one, our pa will handle quite a few people, Im back running it myself and I just set it for the venue.

If you are playing a place where people expect to be able to talk over the music then you have to respect that, if you are playing a place like say Jimmy Dangers band the Farleys plays Im sure its a higher volume atmosphere, in these higher volume venues the patrons expect it to be loud, so being to quiet there can be a disadvantage.

In my case Ive learned our pa, I set up the amp section to match what I feel a room deserves.

I have a certain range on the main output that i maintain at our regular gig, recently we played a place that expected more volume plus its quite a bit bigger so I opened it up more.

So I think you have to decide what matches your venue is what should be your guide.

When I was younger we always basically got all the volume levels we could out of our amps and pa regardless of where we played, in short we would get the level to the point of feedback and then tweak it back just a hair no matter where we played, looking back this was a very stupid move and alienated a lot of people.

I did play briefly with a casino band and yes they have db meters that they measure you with, if your too loud you either turn it down or get out, in this situation after my first gig I quit taking an amp, just plugged a preamp in the pa system and that way no matter where the volume was it was set by the sound guy not me, I didnt like this situation to well, cause it seemed we were just back ground music, but that is the rule in that situation, plus they paid a little more than regular clubs so if you want that money then you have to play by the rules.

I just think it comes down to common sense, if people in a venue are telling you that your too loud, then you should listen and adjust accordingly, if you arent loud enough then adjust accordingly.

With todays amp technologys, its not about getting an amp up to the sweet spot, I can get my tone at any volume level, with either a big amp or a small amp.

Back to the original thread, I think that you have to be able to hear your singer sing, not some guy screaming his guts out, unless that is the kind of music you are playing, everyone including the drummer, needs to get their volume to where you can hear the singer comfortably and he or she also, if you are overblowing your singer, then they will have a hard time finishing a long night. Stage wise a good comfortable level where you hear everyone should be the goal, a band is a team, you shouldnt be competeing with each other for sonic space, you should be complementing your band mates, and if your waking up every morning after a gig hearing crickets in your ears, then trust one whos been there, you are too damn loud.

Back to db meters some venues 90 db can be too loud, some 110 db maybe too quiet, learn to know where you are playing and what is expected and you will get asked back.


Good Luck

Good advice JW. Adjust your performance volume to the audience and the venue... what a great concept. Our current band is pretty good about stage volume now but sometimes it still gets away from us in large rooms. When we are too loud and cannot hear each other well, we always play worse.

I am one of the old dudes here who played way too loud for way too long. Hearing damage was inevitable and I am reminded of this every day. Take care of your ears boys because once they are gone... they are gone. Earplugs are your friends.

I will revisit this.

Volume is relevant to where you are playing at and who you are playing for.

My band has used DB meters and its a great thing to be aware of, over the last couple of years I havent used one, our pa will handle quite a few people, Im back running it myself and I just set it for the venue.

If you are playing a place where people expect to be able to talk over the music then you have to respect that, if you are playing a place like say Jimmy Dangers band the Farleys plays Im sure its a higher volume atmosphere, in these higher volume venues the patrons expect it to be loud, so being to quiet there can be a disadvantage.

In my case Ive learned our pa, I set up the amp section to match what I feel a room deserves.

I have a certain range on the main output that i maintain at our regular gig, recently we played a place that expected more volume plus its quite a bit bigger so I opened it up more.

So I think you have to decide what matches your venue is what should be your guide.

When I was younger we always basically got all the volume levels we could out of our amps and pa regardless of where we played, in short we would get the level to the point of feedback and then tweak it back just a hair no matter where we played, looking back this was a very stupid move and alienated a lot of people.

I did play briefly with a casino band and yes they have db meters that they measure you with, if your too loud you either turn it down or get out, in this situation after my first gig I quit taking an amp, just plugged a preamp in the pa system and that way no matter where the volume was it was set by the sound guy not me, I didnt like this situation to well, cause it seemed we were just back ground music, but that is the rule in that situation, plus they paid a little more than regular clubs so if you want that money then you have to play by the rules.

I just think it comes down to common sense, if people in a venue are telling you that your too loud, then you should listen and adjust accordingly, if you arent loud enough then adjust accordingly.

With todays amp technologys, its not about getting an amp up to the sweet spot, I can get my tone at any volume level, with either a big amp or a small amp.

Back to the original thread, I think that you have to be able to hear your singer sing, not some guy screaming his guts out, unless that is the kind of music you are playing, everyone including the drummer, needs to get their volume to where you can hear the singer comfortably and he or she also, if you are overblowing your singer, then they will have a hard time finishing a long night. Stage wise a good comfortable level where you hear everyone should be the goal, a band is a team, you shouldnt be competeing with each other for sonic space, you should be complementing your band mates, and if your waking up every morning after a gig hearing crickets in your ears, then trust one whos been there, you are too damn loud.

Back to db meters some venues 90 db can be too loud, some 110 db maybe too quiet, learn to know where you are playing and what is expected and you will get asked back.


Good Luck

Good advice JW. Adjust your performance volume to the audience and the venue... what a great concept. Our current band is pretty good about stage volume now but sometimes it still gets away from us in large rooms. When we are too loud and cannot hear each other well, we always play worse.

I am one of the old dudes here who played way too loud for way too long. Hearing damage was inevitable and I am reminded of this every day. Take care of your ears boys because once they are gone... they are gone. Earplugs are your friends.

The above advice is from on high..

A -30db soft earplug is better than nothing. A really good drummer I know wears nothing but full on headphone variety plugs. He says his hearing is already toast and they are a godsend especially in a club volume setting.