General Music Chat

Hi everyone, I need some comments, good or bad. This is an instrumental I wrote back in the late 80's early 90's and finally decided to put the tracks down. I have been burning myself out on different final mixes and need some critique on where to go to now or leave it alone.
I recorded this at home all the guitars and bass but a drummer at LSD in the Boston area did the drum tracks. Thanks for any help.

Oh, man, do I ever know what you mean about burning yourself out with the tracks!
After hearing the same song over & over, with small variations, you can't tell what's good or bad, what's better ot worse . . .
. . . you can't see where the edge of the forest is when you're in the middle of it . . .
When I get to this stage, I take a 24 hour break.
Then when I listen to it the next day, I can usually tell what I need to do - but - not always.
It helps to listen to music of several different genres in-between, to 'cleanse the palette,' so to speak.
.
Good song. Nicely done.
I'd back off on the volume of the cymbols 15 - 20%, though; it seems to be right in front of your face. Nice song; let it shine through.
.
I run up against this all the time (with my own recordings) and it drives me crazy . . . .
I think I've got the track volumes PERFECT - until I listen to the song again, 2 days later.

Was that an acoustic drum kit or electronic drums? I thought they sounded real good. It's hard to record acoustic drums...at least it is for me but I'm still trying. I like the way you had the cymbals panned to the right and left channel. Your playing was right on. Only thing I might do is increase the volume on the bass guitar a little.

Good recording.

Genre is biased though. If you like Poison, it's all good!

JS,

Good rockin song, Scott hit it about right, It has that CC Deville feel to it.

The recording is real bright and tinty sounding to me. I agree with the above post to back off the cymbals or the high eq on them anyway. Also as out front as the drums are the kick doesnt have as much punch as I like to hear.

Being a part time bassist I like to hear more bass. In the break in the middle it would be neat to put some kind of bass effect on the bass. Do you remember that Lenny Kravitz tune on the radio a few years ago. Ill fly Away, it has an effect on the bass that might make that section of the song really stand out. Maybe an autowah with a flanger or phaser on it.

Your guitar parts sound good until the end where you start kind of going off. I cant say I like the tone of the guitar, once again its a bit tinty for my taste. Go listen to Wegman on his player. He has the guitar tone that would fit this song. I hope Im not being too critical.

Once again good rockin song, the guitar playing is spot on til the end. Spice up the bass a little and a little less highs in the mix.

JW

Thank you all for your help. I am going to try to cut the highs on the room mics for the drums. I had used a -3 db tilt on the eq. Hoot, they are
acoustic drums. They were recorded at the drummers studio and he sent me raw tracks to work with; no eq or compression. I think I boosted the highs too much with the mastering plug-in I use. CPT Scott, yes I love some of Poison's material and alot from that era really. I guess I need to break out of my 80's rut. I agree with you hoot. maybe alittle more bass.
JW, yes I like Wegman's sound. Thanks for the pointers, going to give it a break and come back later in a few days to experiment.

JSewell, you think you're in a rut?

Lol. Man you have the fingers to show it. That looks like it hurts, probably numb though? My hats off to you, I admit, acoustic was always harder to play for me unless you have a good action on the neck. Thanks for your reply. Have a nice frosty evening!!

JW, i kinda like the guitar sound you have on cyber..

What kind of mics do you use??

Hey dude sorry I am late to the party.

I like this tune. Very well constructed, nice changes, good playing. Like others have said change the tone on some things and it will be killer. Sounds like to much ambient miking to me but that is easily fixed.

I really like your work mate and this is a great tune.

Thanks Weg for the reply, Checked out some of your stuff. Your a killer player, like your style alot. I am going to revamp my guitar recording and go to another mic. What mic do you use? Simple 57? Right now I am using a cl8 large diaphram in cardiod mode. Sampson makes it. The price was good. We also have the EV that Zak models in samash. I am going to try that.

It is hard to be writer, player, prodeucer and engineer at the same time but it is fun.

Rock on,
Joe

Joe,

Thanks for the kind words they are appreciated.

I used to use a crummy Shure Beta Green 3 and alot of EQ. I am now using a Shure KSM 27. If your not familair it is a condesor (powered) as opposed to a cardiod. It makes a HUGE difference let me tell you. Supposedly the old standard is as you said a Shure SM57 for guitar cabinets but the KSM 27 is a pretty good choice since it can take the high sound pressure levels. Everyone has a preference and there is no right or wrong answer. I would say though for cost/reward you can't go wrong with the SM57 for guitar.

When I listen to your recording I really believe if the ambient mic-ing is cut and you bring everything closer in the mix your going to have good tone. Your guitar sounds clean, and all the instruments have good presence, it just sounds like they were recorded with ambient or boundry mics. Do you have the recording in track by track format? IF so I would cut the ambient mics and bring up the close mics and that should solve alot of the issues. I actually like sharp crisp crash and ride cymbals. I think if you get the other issues worked out they actually will blend alot better in the mix instead of sounding so pronounced as they do now. It's all about balance and giving each instrument it's own space within the sonic field, within it's own dynamic range. That's the secret.

Like you said it is hard to wear all the hats but that is what I enjoy. This way when you finsih a piece it is a creation all your own from start to finish. The other thing is you never stop learning, at least I don't.

IF there is anything else I can perhaps help you with let me know. For the record I am far from having it all figured out or an expert. There are alot of guys who really have it down and perhaps they can chime and we can both learn something!


Oh I just read your entry and thought of something else that you may or may not be aware of. Moving the mic around the speaker and distance from the speaker makes a huge difference. You don't have to move it far either. An inch in any direction can make a huge impact on the tone and attack. If this was obvious to you I apologize. Many guys put the mic right on the cone and leave it there never thinking to move it. For the record I mic anywhere from a foot or an inch awaywith the mic pointing at the edge of the cone and the rest of the speaker . All depends what I am going for.

I'll be sure and let you know when I do this over again. One question, do you crank your head when you record?? I am thinking of putting the amp in the closet and cranking it up to about 5 on master.

Funny you ask. I run an Alesis quadaverb and plug it into the effects loop on the Marshall. This enables me to crank the amp but use the volume controls on the effects unit to control the volume. I talked to Marshall about this and there is nothing wrong with doing this. The effects loop is a ciruit between the preamp section and power sections of the amp so according to Marshall there is no detriment to amp what so ever and it is designed to be used like this. However any time you crank the master volume you are beating up your output valves.

Using this seup I can crank the pre section and get the gain, use the volume on effects processor to keep the volume in check and send a high gain signal with low volume to the power section resulting in decent tone at lower volumes. A lower end effects processor such as this will kill some of your tone but I find EQing compensates ok. Other then that I use an old DOD overdrive pre-amp pedal with the level knob at about half and the distortion knob just about set at full cut. The rest is the effects processor to add echo and some EQ. I use a Gibson Les Paul Custom with a different bridge pickup. Sorry, it was like 20 years ago I swapped out the pickup so I don't remember what kind it is. Some kind of high gain Dimarzio if memory serves me.

Very simple setup. The way I like it.

This is what I do. Your results may vary.

Another thing that makes a huge difference is the valves your using in your amp. I just had my Marshall re-valved because they had never been changed in like 10 years. Marshalls come stock with Svetlanas these days and back when my amp was made in the late 80's I am told they came with either Svetlanas or Teslas. I had my amp re-valved with Groove Tubes because that is what the shop I went to uses and it changed everything, for the worse. I ended up putting one of my old pre valves in the first position (this is the one that controls tone on Marshalls) to get some of my sound back. I am next going to order a set of Svetlana Pre valves to see if I can get my old sound back.

I wrote a whole a editorial and provided several links about this in the thread New AMP? if your interested in perusing it for more in depth information. I have provided the link to it.

http://forum.bandmix.com/viewtopic.php?t=3845&start=15

Scroll down to the last entry which is me and the information is there.

JS,

Wegman got about the best Marshall sound Ive heard on this site, so he would be someone to listen too. When I use live amps I use a SM 57 anywhere from 1 to 6 inches off the grill of the cabinet. I ussually put it a couple of inches off center of the cone toward the center of the cabinet. I have an Avlex condenser mic that I use for distance or space, anywhere from 3 ft to 12 ft off the cabinet. I ussually pan these tracks left and right in the mix to get some depth to the guitar. Another trick is to double your rythym tracks and pan them. This will give you a thick guitar sound. For me closer micing works better for rythym and distance micing works better for solos. On the other hand if you want to get it done in a hurry those little POD units are good and so are those Sans Amps. With these you can get rolling quick. I think there is a real art to micing amps. I know I have tape on the floor where to place mics and cabs and it never sounds the same.

As far as cranking an amp in the closet. I built a pair of cabinets in my garage that will hold a 4x12 cab and wired them into the room I have all my equipment in. It doesnt take a lot of volume to get a good sound. As you crank louder and louder it seems to bring in a lot of weird overtones to me. Most of the true guitar greats used small amps for recording. Jimmy Page used a Supro, Clapton used a Fender Champ, Hendrix used Fender Twins in the studio. So I dont think the volume of the amp matters. I used to have one of those 100 watt Plexi Marshalls and you had to turn it up or it didnt sound right. The rig youve got in you profile should be able to get a good tone at any volume. Sometimes less is more.

Good Luck and thanks for being open to what everyone is saying, sometimes people take the criticism as a personal assault. Its not, most of us on here want you to sound as good as you can, but in the end your sound is your signature so be yourself.

John Wilder