Music Industry Discussion

I have done extensive research on Gnostism and we are at serious odds there. Me being a Christian by definition simply can't buy any portion of it. You being pagan, have a different view. Who is right? It depends where your faith is placed.

It's not a question of faith at all. It's a question of facts. I gave you a few sources where you can read about the REAL history of Gnosticism and its tie to original Christianity, and there are hundreds more. Now you may not like the idea of Gnostic Christianity but that doesn't stop it from being historically so. As they say, yuo can have yuor own opinions but you cannot have your own facts.

I believe I am because I believe the word of God (the bible) to be infalable. For me to force my belief on you as fact just because I believe it to be so is unfair and not right. Still I look at Gnostism as sneaky way of undermining Christianity from the inside. Like not everyone got the same story. Sorry, I just don't buy it

Nothing written by the hand of man is infallable. Nothing. And the "sneakiness" that you fear from Gnosticism is that it may shake what Christianity has BECOME, not what it was.

Another thing I have noticed in speaking with you. You keep going to the translations of the bible. It is a fact the bible is the most accurately translated text ever.

That is just absolutely false. You may be confusing the work of the scribes in COPYING the Bible, with accurate translation. The two are not the same. The ancient scribes were indeed meticulous about their work, but that was when they were working from one translation. Enter the King James Version, with its obvious political and cultural agenda targeting Europeans of the time, and translation is thrown to the wolves. I could talk to you for days about all the sheer mistranslations of words and prhases in the KJV, as well as utter OMISSIONS of whole books (thanks to the early Catholic church) such as The Magical Books of Solomon, The Goatia and The Apocrypha. Put all this together and you have anything but "the most accurately translated text ever".

Where are you getting all these improper translations? I have studied multiple translations of the bible and though the wording may be a little different, the message is the same.

Really? Do you speak read and write ancient Hebrew and Greek?

The pastor at my Church (who is my brother in law and has masters in theology) will use several different versions for hyper accuracy.

Hyper accuracy? Help me out here, how can the multiple use of questionable translations amount to 'hyper accuracy'?

Still giving the benefit of the doubt of mis interpretation into consideration, the Tao Te Ching, the Art of War, and the I Ching are 100s of times less accurate, however I never hear anyone attack those.

First off, how do you know how accurate they are? Do you speak Chinese? Also your logic is a bit off here because you are making some false analogies. No one is "attacking" those because they are not used as a blunt instrument wielded against people by evangelists pushing a religious/social/political agenda. The Dao De Zhing is attributed to philosopher Lao Tzu and central to Chinese religion. However, unlike the document obsessed West, the ancient Chinese (and the ancients of many other cultures) didnt stress so much about literalism. They were "big picture" folks who had a a powerful oral tradition which is, in some ways, superior to our hyperliteralism today. Thats why Chinese dont have internal culture wars about how "accurate" The Dao is. The Dao is just....the dao! The way. You study it, see if it carries some enlightenment for you.

I'm also curious why yuo brought up Sun Tzu's Art of War. That's not a holy book, it's a military strategy book.

The Tao Te Ching is the second most translated book besides the bible. I site these references because I am very familiar with them. I am trained in Tai Chi so I am quite familair with those texts and there teachings. I have a little background in Zen as well.

Uhm, Tai Chi is an exercise form. What does that have to do with the "accuracy" of the Dao De Zhing?

Let me say this. I used to be just like you. I thought the same way, and held the same beliefs however I was a Taoist. I actually became a Christian by accident. Once I started to really study the bible I find the bible taken literally as infallable. There is no grey area unless I create it, and all the answers are there straight and to the point. But that's me.

No, you didn't used to be like me. I was raised Mormon. I had more Jesus in my life than you probably will in the rest of yours. But as an early teen there were many questions about life and my own spirit that the LDS Church couldnt answer. Nor could any of the several other Christian sects I studied at the time. I learned that the words of men, and their texts, were all opinion and fallable as anything else. I gradually found out what a big world it was, and came upon a "way" that fit for me (witchcraft) and began developing that. I have lived and worked in Asia (Japan, China) and Europe, and had some amazing experiences in not limiting my view out of fear. I met some wonderful people in Asia, who practiced their ancestral religions quietly and to themselves, and never had the need to preach, hit me over the head with the Dao De Zhing or anything of that sort. Imagine my shock when I went back home and saw the rise of the Religious Right (and we see the results of that today).

I am hopeful, though. One day we Americans may rediscover the virtue of the "small quiet" path.

I didn't understand what was going on there for a second lol. I haven't found that scripture yet so I will say that I was wrong in what I said but I did find something interesting in it's place. This goes to Irminsul. I found this while looking for the scripture. it basically explains sex in the bible. It's pretty good. They give the scriptures so you can look them up for yourself.

Anyway here is the site http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sex/long.htm

I know it's a skeptics site but it's still very interesting. It goes into what me and Irminsul were talking about especially the life of David lol. He was a horn dog lol.

Anyway I got the baby monitor in here now so I should be good lol. Sleep is ok he's really not that loud. He only gets loud when he is hungry thas about it lol. Hates to have his diaper changed but he'll get over that lol. Later!

This is what is so dangerous. You thought for sure and believed, and were told that all other forms of sex outside of missionary for a married couple were wrong. You even believed you read it some where in the bible. That is Satan at work my man. This is why we have to read and study the bible for ourselves, forget what other people say and what yu have been told and go straight to the source. It never fails me and like I said, I used to be it's biggest skeptic.

I have done extensive research on Gnostism and we are at serious odds there. Me being a Christian by definition simply can't buy any portion of it. You being pagan, have a different view. Who is right? It depends where your faith is placed.

It's not a question of faith at all. It's a question of facts. I gave you a few sources where you can read about the REAL history of Gnosticism and its tie to original Christianity, and there are hundreds more. Now you may not like the idea of Gnostic Christianity but that doesn't stop it from being historically so. As they say, yuo can have yuor own opinions but you cannot have your own facts.

I believe I am because I believe the word of God (the bible) to be infalable. For me to force my belief on you as fact just because I believe it to be so is unfair and not right. Still I look at Gnostism as sneaky way of undermining Christianity from the inside. Like not everyone got the same story. Sorry, I just don't buy it

Nothing written by the hand of man is infallable. Nothing. And the "sneakiness" that you fear from Gnosticism is that it may shake what Christianity has BECOME, not what it was.

Another thing I have noticed in speaking with you. You keep going to the translations of the bible. It is a fact the bible is the most accurately translated text ever.

That is just absolutely false. You may be confusing the work of the scribes in COPYING the Bible, with accurate translation. The two are not the same. The ancient scribes were indeed meticulous about their work, but that was when they were working from one translation. Enter the King James Version, with its obvious political and cultural agenda targeting Europeans of the time, and translation is thrown to the wolves. I could talk to you for days about all the sheer mistranslations of words and prhases in the KJV, as well as utter OMISSIONS of whole books (thanks to the early Catholic church) such as The Magical Books of Solomon, The Goatia and The Apocrypha. Put all this together and you have anything but "the most accurately translated text ever".

Where are you getting all these improper translations? I have studied multiple translations of the bible and though the wording may be a little different, the message is the same.

Really? Do you speak read and write ancient Hebrew and Greek?

The pastor at my Church (who is my brother in law and has masters in theology) will use several different versions for hyper accuracy.

Hyper accuracy? Help me out here, how can the multiple use of questionable translations amount to 'hyper accuracy'?

Still giving the benefit of the doubt of mis interpretation into consideration, the Tao Te Ching, the Art of War, and the I Ching are 100s of times less accurate, however I never hear anyone attack those.

First off, how do you know how accurate they are? Do you speak Chinese? Also your logic is a bit off here because you are making some false analogies. No one is "attacking" those because they are not used as a blunt instrument wielded against people by evangelists pushing a religious/social/political agenda. The Dao De Zhing is attributed to philosopher Lao Tzu and central to Chinese religion. However, unlike the document obsessed West, the ancient Chinese (and the ancients of many other cultures) didnt stress so much about literalism. They were "big picture" folks who had a a powerful oral tradition which is, in some ways, superior to our hyperliteralism today. Thats why Chinese dont have internal culture wars about how "accurate" The Dao is. The Dao is just....the dao! The way. You study it, see if it carries some enlightenment for you.

I'm also curious why yuo brought up Sun Tzu's Art of War. That's not a holy book, it's a military strategy book.

The Tao Te Ching is the second most translated book besides the bible. I site these references because I am very familiar with them. I am trained in Tai Chi so I am quite familair with those texts and there teachings. I have a little background in Zen as well.

Uhm, Tai Chi is an exercise form. What does that have to do with the "accuracy" of the Dao De Zhing?

Let me say this. I used to be just like you. I thought the same way, and held the same beliefs however I was a Taoist. I actually became a Christian by accident. Once I started to really study the bible I find the bible taken literally as infallable. There is no grey area unless I create it, and all the answers are there straight and to the point. But that's me.

No, you didn't used to be like me. I was raised Mormon. I had more Jesus in my life than you probably will in the rest of yours. But as an early teen there were many questions about life and my own spirit that the LDS Church couldnt answer. Nor could any of the several other Christian sects I studied at the time. I learned that the words of men, and their texts, were all opinion and fallable as anything else. I gradually found out what a big world it was, and came upon a "way" that fit for me (witchcraft) and began developing that. I have lived and worked in Asia (Japan, China) and Europe, and had some amazing experiences in not limiting my view out of fear. I met some wonderful people in Asia, who practiced their ancestral religions quietly and to themselves, and never had the need to preach, hit me over the head with the Dao De Zhing or anything of that sort. Imagine my shock when I went back home and saw the rise of the Religious Right (and we see the results of that today).

I am hopeful, though. One day we Americans may rediscover the virtue of the "small quiet" path.

Ok, I really don't want to get into it again. Suffice to say I don't agree with you, at all, on any of your points and I can site counter points and this could go on and on. So I honor your feelings, conviction and approach. If that works for you, I am truely happy for you.

I think further biblical discussions between us are futile. We are on seperate ends of the spectrum. Also suffice to say before I comment on a matter I have looked at both sides of the story. I gave Gnostism a chance, IMO it doesn't hold water. YOu feel differently. I can respect that but neither one of us is more or less ignorant then the other. We just see it differently. YOur tone comes across as combative because some one doesn't agree, like they are stupid and not capable of grasping the facts you see. I read the same facts, analyze them, and draw a conclusion. I am sorry if my conclusion is not the same as yours.

If you would like to change gears and discuss the Tao Te Ching I would be all for that, and Tai Chi is way more then excerise. It is a very very powerful internal martial art. I site the Tao Te Ching because it is a religious philosophy, and one I was taught while studing Tai Chi, from a master who speaks Chinese. Basically, if far easier dialects can't be translated properly, take any Chinese translation and throw it out the window. The Tao being the second most translated book tells me there are alot of followers who got "a bad translation" using your analogy of misinterpretation. I mentioned the Art of War because it is/was compulsory reading at West Point. So, they go it wrong to. If your analogy goes for one it has to go for all translations of literary works.

IF man can put a man on the moon, I believe he is capable of translating a literary work with a degree of accuracy, especially one as important as the bible. I will not indulge you by implying that God perhaps has hand in the matter as well.

Don't doubt me to much just cause I f**k up every now and then lol. At least I was man enough to say I was wrong which doesn't seem to be the case with most in this conversation lol.

There isn't much more to add other then what Irminsul has written. Man has isolated himself into thinking that words written by man are the honest and wholesome truth. I can't live that way I really don't see how anyone can but I do understand there conviction to there faith not there religeon.

Just like Irminsul said hopefully one day people will walk the quiet path. It seems to make people a little more at peace. Just like in this conversation I don't think i've gotten mad about what anyone has said at any point in time lol.

I have poked a little fun and made a few jokes but hey thas life. Yet as much as you would like to think that satan caused my little blimish of a comment I would have to say nah. Satan has so many other important things to do other then make me say something like that. I honestly thought I had read it in there so therefore it falls into the category of human error not satan working inside me lol.

Don't doubt me to much just cause I f**k up every now and then lol. At least I was man enough to say I was wrong which doesn't seem to be the case with most in this conversation lol.

There isn't much more to add other then what Irminsul has written. Man has isolated himself into thinking that words written by man are the honest and wholesome truth. I can't live that way I really don't see how anyone can but I do understand there conviction to there faith not there religeon.

Just like Irminsul said hopefully one day people will walk the quiet path. It seems to make people a little more at peace. Just like in this conversation I don't think i've gotten mad about what anyone has said at any point in time lol.

I have poked a little fun and made a few jokes but hey thas life. Yet as much as you would like to think that satan caused my little blimish of a comment I would have to say nah. Satan has so many other important things to do other then make me say something like that. I honestly thought I had read it in there so therefore it falls into the category of human error not satan working inside me lol.

Daniel,

I pass no judgement on you what so ever. You weren't specifically trying to deceive. But some one has deceived you no? YOu said you are a Christian. Then you know who the prime deceiver is, right?

The quiet path? I know the quiet path. I studied it when studying Tai Chi and taoism. I moved to the north woods of Wisconsin and lead a rather secluded life for just that reason.

I really am sorry I ever mixed up in these discussions. For the record I am not out to point a finger at anyone, or try to convert anyone. I do like the debate because it makes me dig deeper and research more and see other points of view to see if mine still stand up. I use them to strengthen myself, rather then weaken some one else.

If you see it otherwise, I sincerely apologize. Same goes to Irminsul.

Ok, I really don't want to get into it again. ......

I think further biblical discussions between us are futile. .......

You know what's strange, you keep saying you don't want to talk about this anymore yet right after you say it, there is yet another post addressed to the topic. Call me crazy but it appears you still must talk about it. Nothing wrong with that, but just say so and stop making all these false exits.

YOur tone comes across as combative because some one doesn't agree, like they are stupid and not capable of grasping the facts you see. I read the same facts, analyze them, and draw a conclusion. I am sorry if my conclusion is not the same as yours.

I believe the "combative" tone you perceive may be some of your own projection. With all due respect, I have come across this while attempting discussion with many evangelical/fundamentalist Christians and I think it is because this flavor of religious ideology sees things in very limited black and white terms. There is no room for interpretation, facts that may challenge preconceived beliefs. Scripture trumps experience, faith trumps fact, and if you do not concur then you are written off as an opposer - either simply mistaken or Satanically inspired.

A really good documentary on this subject is called "God's Army" and it really gets into the nitty gritty of American evangalism-fundamentalism. And not 10 minutes of the film passes when you don't hear one of the faithful say "we are at WAR" and this suddenly makes it all clear. This is a "war". Therefore its a fight for your beliefs, not a sharing of thoughts or Gods forbid a live and let live scenario. There is no acceptance, there is no compromise. There is only victory or defeat. So "combative"? Indeed!

Basically, if far easier dialects can't be translated properly, take any Chinese translation and throw it out the window. The Tao being the second most translated book tells me there are alot of followers who got "a bad translation" using your analogy of misinterpretation. I mentioned the Art of War because it is/was compulsory reading at West Point. So, they go it wrong to. If your analogy goes for one it has to go for all translations of literary works.

That is correct. Literalism is not perfect, whether you are talking about The Dao or The Bible. And every subsequent revision or translation takes more away from the previous message. The difference though, for our purposes, is that there is not that "culture war" going on over the Dao De Zhing. It is not constantly being wielded over my head and making its way into the laws that govern my society. No, that infamy is reserved for the KJV Bible and those who seek to use it as a truncheon to chew away at our secular government. If that ever changes, you will see me on the front lines of attacking the accuracy of the modern Dao De Zhing.

IF man can put a man on the moon, I believe he is capable of translating a literary work with a degree of accuracy, especially one as important as the bible. I will not indulge you by implying that God perhaps has hand in the matter as well.

Simply pointing out our technological advances does not necessarily point up an easy solution for another dilemma. We've also split the atom, but we still cannot get along with our neighbors. So the moon landing analogy is a poor one.

Struggling with issues of faith is always with us regardless of our technological prowess. We will be mistranslating, omitting and outright mischaracterizing scripture for our own purposes long after we've crafted scientific wonders not even conceived of yet. And, as Einstein would put it, the abyss of that dilemma is because of its petrifying simplicity. The mystery is one of the soul, and of personal experience, and it will never be totally described by, or solved by, the standard written word. That is the glass ceiling of the Literary Age.

I have poked a little fun and made a few jokes but hey thas life. Yet as much as you would like to think that satan caused my little blimish of a comment I would have to say nah. Satan has so many other important things to do other then make me say something like that. I honestly thought I had read it in there so therefore it falls into the category of human error not satan working inside me lol.

Daniel this really made me laugh because you reminded me of what happened to me the only time I tried to blame something on "the Devil"....

I was six years old and I stole some money out of my mom's purse. She caught me and gave me the old "wait till your father gets home" routine. So he gets home, she fills him in on the situation, and then he sits me down and said "Alright, you tell me WHY you stole money out of your mother's purse!" I thought for a second, remembering I'd seen adults blame plenty of stuff on Satan so I thought what the hell...I looked right up at him and said "The devil made me do it!" Oh man, he got red in the face and yelled "BulllllSHIT! The devil didnt do anything. YOU did it! And you're gonna get the paddling because you also lied about it!"

And I got the spanking of my life. My dad was right though. It was a great lesson about taking responsibility for your own actions.

[
I mentioned BandMix, but the next week they said that there wasn't much in the way of Christian musicians. Are there any faith based musicians here?[/quote]

Most people find it hard to admit anything really. Alchohalics can't admit they have a problem, Kids don't tell the truth cause they are scared, Adults won't tell the truth cause they are afraid there credibility or there reputation may be hurt.

It's one lesson I learned thankfully early. I remember lying when I was little and I thought to myself why did I do that? Also I remembered a story about moses giving his wife to a pharos harem. Well the pharo got all pissed off and asked moses why he gave him a married women cause if he would have slept with her he would have brought gods wrath on his people. Moses told him that he was scared that the pharoh was going to kill his whole family to take just his wife so that was his way of protecting them.

Even people in the bible were liars at times. That is why nowadays i'd prefet to be wiith someone who does bad things and admits to them then someone who covers them up with pretty lies to make them into a saint.

Ok that was a bit harsh but still. I'd prefer someone to tell me they have screwed up instead of lying about it. That is what loses your credibility.

Are there any faith based musicians here?

Yep!

I dont know if I would consider myself a "faith-based musician", but I do have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I may be completely insane, but I believe that music can be used as a weapon against thosewho would oppose the Kingdom of Heaven, and I use it accordingly. Though not to say my music is always geared towards beating some Jesus into you, I prefer a more subliminal approach. Kind of like Jars of Clay or Switchfoot, who openly confess to being total Jesus Freaks, yet focus mainly on postive lyrics about life issues, and include a healthy dose of morals.

As a side note, I think the world could benifeit on a large scale by having more Christ Following musicians. So I would ask that if you are a "faith-based musician", or any sort of Jesus Freak for that matter, to keep going forward with your God given talents and make music that puts a smile on our Lords face. I think the supreme ruler of the universe deserves at least that much from us.

Keep the faith, and take everything to God through prayer and petition...
See you guys on th other side!

I dont know if I would consider myself a "faith-based musician", but I do have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I may be completely insane, but I believe that music can be used as a weapon....

You want to use music as a weapon? Yes, you' are insane. And Jesus thinks you are too.

I feel like this is an AA meeting.

"Hi, my name is Scott and I am a god-a-holic" Crowd Responds - "Hi Scott"!

"Ah, I am a god-a-holic and I kind of like it. I just do all of that in private away from prying eyes and I don't use my music to further my spiritual beliefs. I don't think it's fair to my music to become entangled in god's issues".

Sorry, it's a weakness of mine. I love long walks on the beach, a crackling fire with a cognac, and toying with fundamentalist nutjobs.

Yes, but the will bite you on your fret hand. LMAO