General Music Chat

fisherman bob, I believe you. I have had weird things happen as well that cannot be explained by science. This is why I feel torn. I feel like there is something greater out there. I don't like labels though because with labels comes definitions to which has been made popular by the media. and then you get different cultures arguing over who is right in their definition because the media in the US is different in other countries. I could never get into reading the Bible or any other religious text. I end up falling asleep and not only that, it seems that people take what they want out of the text and use it against others in the way that they live their life. another thing that bothers me about religion, and also scares me, is that in Christianity, at least Baptist, you are told that if you do not ask Jesus into your heart to be saved, you are going to hell. I don't like scare tactics either. Shouldn't it be good enough to say that you believe in a higher power, pray when needed, and do good in the world. if a person does all this, but does not go to church and does not literally say out loud "Jesus, I take you into my heart, please forgive me for my sins and save me", does this mean they are going to hell?

[quote=PaperDog]Under the principles of time, as we know it today, a tiny universe, packed with all that is here today, would contain time, as compacted, back then.[/quote]

I'm having trouble viewing time as being "contained" or localized and expanding due to a physical reaction. Even the way we speak about the Big Bang theory, we say things like "before the Big Bang", there was nothing. Conceptually, I think it's natural to view time as continuous, whether there was matter or not. It's more of conceptual framework in my thinking, and from our standpoint (beings whose experience requires time to make sense out of experience), I don't see how it can be "created". To me, it's more of an "always been there, always will be".

The grand question, much like "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound", is, if there are no minds to comprehend time, does it exist? Or is it "sound and fury signifying nothing?". To this point, I think I lean towards "yes", but only because God is eternal and God has a "mind" and I think He is the source of time.

I like these discussion. Fun topic.

" if a person does all this, but does not go to church and does not literally say out loud "Jesus, I take you into my heart, please forgive me for my sins and save me", does this mean they are going to hell?"

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who will be judged as having righteousness before God, but only the doers: For when the Gentiles without the law have a natural desire to do the things in the law, they are a law to themselves; Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval;

Actually Romans chapters 2&3 answer your question very well.

No one through the lineage of Adam has been justified through the law. The law was written to show us our inability to fulfill it. So since we can not fulfill the law, God has given us one who has fulfilled the law as a sacrifice for us. However, if we reject that sacrifice we will be judged as rejecting Gods only sacrifice for us, that being His son. So justification from the law that brought death comes only through belief in Christ. It is also written that we are to sanctify ourselves through the spirit and the word. Without Christ there is no spirit. For even the Devil believes in God, yet it does him little good.

But if one does not believe in God, and His Christ as the only way to God through the sacrifice he made for us, then why would one even concern themselves with a "Hell"? Aren't the concepts of salvation, heaven, and hell all found in the same book? To believe one part and not accept the other parts makes little sense.

"Under the principles of time, as we know it today, a tiny universe, packed with all that is here today, would contain time, as compacted, back then. So, given x units in a tiny frame, and comparing the same X units in a vast frame, it is possible to construe that a day in that tiny universe was the equivalent of a 10 thousand year span in our modern universe. If this is true, then it would make sense if the earth was created in 7 days, that time could easily translate to a rough millennium by today's definition. There is some math that supports this theory (And No I don't know that math...But I did stay in a Holiday inn Express once... ) . "

Yet according to Genesis, the time of a day is indicated by the rising and setting of the sun of this world. That would make it roughly a 24 hour day. Now I do not have a problem believing the God that I worship could have done it instantly if he had wanted to, but I propose that God chose to do it as written for his purpose concerning us. So as one who believes scripture, I have to accept the evening and morning time frame as written.

Consider this. IF I have a weapon that I can shoot and hit the moon with, the Arc between point A (The earth) and point B (The moon) is so great of a distance, that if I am off, even by 1 degree on my bead, here at point A....that could translate to Hundreds of thousands of miles off at Point B.

So the time/distance between the rising and and setting of the sun could imply the same offsets in degrees, depending on the state of the universe's expansion at that instance. ( His day and night scientifically implies that the earth spins into and away from the light of the sun in a given cycle.) The distance from the sun and the speed of the rotation, together determine the cycle. I am just suggesting that the distance was more compacted back then, Thus, a day cycle back then is actually quicker, relatively speaking than a day cycle in modern times...

In Genesis, It does not say when" precisely God began to create the earth. (as opposed to creating the universe) But it is reasonable to assume, , the universe may have reached a threshold of expansion, familiar to our concept of 24 hours (which God would find suitable, and then proceed to create the Earth).

fisherman bob, I believe you. I have had weird things happen as well that cannot be explained by science. This is why I feel torn. I feel like there is something greater out there. I don't like labels though because with labels comes definitions to which has been made popular by the media. and then you get different cultures arguing over who is right in their definition because the media in the US is different in other countries. I could never get into reading the Bible or any other religious text. I end up falling asleep and not only that, it seems that people take what they want out of the text and use it against others in the way that they live their life. another thing that bothers me about religion, and also scares me, is that in Christianity, at least Baptist, you are told that if you do not ask Jesus into your heart to be saved, you are going to hell. I don't like scare tactics either. Shouldn't it be good enough to say that you believe in a higher power, pray when needed, and do good in the world. if a person does all this, but does not go to church and does not literally say out loud "Jesus, I take you into my heart, please forgive me for my sins and save me", does this mean they are going to hell?

These are all good questions, and should be asked. I do believe common sense should prevail. Like I say to others...if you cant prove God, then most likely you cant prove love... Both are wistful and cannot be captured...yet both are presumed to be freely given...They are said to be synonymous with each other.
What remains then, is a personal decision of whether to believe in them or not.

Show me the the staunchest Christian, and I will show you the heaviest sinner. Show me a non-sinner, and I'll show you Satan, himself.
In the end, the real Christ/God, is not set out to bury you and I in guilt. Rather, there seems to be an attempt to flood us with hope.

No one through the lineage of Adam has been justified through the law. The law was written to show us our inability to fulfill it.

I have a huge problem with part of this statement. and I believe it to be unintentionally misleading.
The law was given to us to protect ourselves from ourselves. The fact that we fall short of fulfilling that law is/ was already inherently revealed through our weaknesses, By no means, did god give us the law with the sole intention to illustrate our fallibility.

I have no argument against the assertion that we cannot be justified through the law, since the only true way to salvation is through the acceptance of Christ and not by deed (or law) .

[quote=PaperDog]Under the principles of time, as we know it today, a tiny universe, packed with all that is here today, would contain time, as compacted, back then.

I'm having trouble viewing time as being "contained" or localized and expanding due to a physical reaction. Even the way we speak about the Big Bang theory, we say things like "before the Big Bang", there was nothing. Conceptually, I think it's natural to view time as continuous, whether there was matter or not. It's more of conceptual framework in my thinking, and from our standpoint (beings whose experience requires time to make sense out of experience), I don't see how it can be "created". To me, it's more of an "always been there, always will be".

The grand question, much like "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound", is, if there are no minds to comprehend time, does it exist? Or is it "sound and fury signifying nothing?". To this point, I think I lean towards "yes", but only because God is eternal and God has a "mind" and I think He is the source of time.

I like these discussion. Fun topic.

[/quote]

Given what you said, you will truly appreciate what I'm about to submit...

No one through the lineage of Adam has been justified through the law. The law was written to show us our inability to fulfill it.

I have a huge problem with part of this statement. and I believe it to be unintentionally misleading.
The law was given to us to protect ourselves from ourselves. The fact that we fall short of fulfilling that law is/ was already inherently revealed through our weaknesses, By no means, did god give us the law with the sole intention to illustrate our fallibility.

I have no argument against the assertion that we cannot be justified through the law, since the only true way to salvation is through the acceptance of Christ and not by deed (or law) .

Rom 3:20 Because by the works of the law no man is able to have righteousness in his eyes, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 5:12 For this reason, as through one man sin came into the world, and death because of sin, and so death came to all men, because all have done evil:
Rom 5:13 Because, till the law came, sin was in existence, but sin is not put to the account of anyone when there is no law to be broken.

So in essence, the law was given to reveal sin, and in revealing the law we embrace our inability to fulfill it. For without the law we were unaware of our need of a sacrifice to cover our sins, that sacrifice being Christ. Therefore the law reveals to us our inability to fulfill it.

No offense meant, but I see this other (below) as being totally irrelevant. What on earth does it have to do with who instituted time, man or God? It has to nothing to do with the concept that God did or did not put time into place for his creation. Whether the rise till the setting of the sun took a billion years or whether it took twenty four hours, it is still God who designated "On the first day".... before the creation of man. Therefore man could not have instituted time under any theory, for those who believe in the God of the Bible.

"So the time/distance between the rising and and setting of the sun could imply the same offsets in degrees, depending on the state of the universe's expansion at that instance. ( His day and night scientifically implies that the earth spins into and away from the light of the sun in a given cycle.) The distance from the sun and the speed of the rotation, together determine the cycle. I am just suggesting that the distance was more compacted back then, Thus, a day cycle back then is actually quicker, relatively speaking than a day cycle in modern times... "

TRAVERSING THE TIME PLANE - My whack Theory on Time:

To discuss this, I also have to include the topic of existence, since one cannot have existence without time, and vice verse. (According to current scientific assumptions)

Lets suppose:... I invented the Ashtray. First I conceived the idea, then I assembled the matter in such a fashion, that a specific form took shape. The most important attribute about this ash-tray is its specific "purpose" and how well its function aligns toward that end. On Earth , we would marvel at this as a 'creation of man'.

Now, let's suppose, that I take this marvelous invention and I smash it into the ground, breaking it to pieces. Indeed I have rearranged the matter, which has effected the shape and form..The function of the ashtray has ceased. But, what I could not destroywas the concept or idea of that function (and purpose). In fact, these now exist, where they did not before, and thus they will now last forever as long as earth keeps spinning...
I can re fashion a new ash tray 'when' ever I choose.

One could parallel this with the original theme about the big bang theory, where the universe suddenly appears and ultimately can no longer "not" exist.

Now, Let's suppose that God exists, and exists "outside' of the universe. In fact, for mental illustration, picture a vast, endless table or plane. We will call that plane "Existence". And on that plane, we discover that the entire body of knowledge permeates the plane (in all existence). On that plane, there are also free agents, which dwell. Amongst those agents, are us.

In all the life as we know it, we discover that on this plane, we are the only mortal creatures in God's creation, who can roam freely on the plane. That is to say, we are mobile, dynamic and transient. As we traverse the plane, we come to discover our ashtray. It exists! We come to realize that the ashtray 'has always been, is, and 'will always be'. We simply arrived upon it at some instance in existence. (the day it was invented, on earth). The same could be applied for the invention of car, the mouse trap and ATMs and so on...including discovery of language, models logical constructs, and so on.

In fact, let's suppose that the plane of existence is not itself about the manifestation of matter and materials of the universe. Rather, let's suppose its the plane of all 'possibilities', which manifest themselves later from idea, purpose, function to their earthly forms... Suppose the universe is the manifestation of a 'mere possibility' that resides in the plane of existence...and was arrived upon (at deliberate will) by God, and in turn became manifest into Physical Matter and material?

Okay If I aint lost your interest, lets jump it up a notch...
I would submit that:
The largest unit or measure of time parallels the breadth, depth and scope of the plane of existence. If the plane of existence is eternal, then so too is time.

If true, then when man is free of the physical universe...could we come to experience the entire breadth, depth and scope of the plane of existence, such that time becomes irrelevant? AN analogy: A balloon filled with helium will continue to rise until the atmospheric pressure is light enough to match and cancel out the Balloon/helium pressure. Height greater than this threshold becomes moot and is no longer relevant.
On the plane of existence, when we are able to arrive upon all 'possibilities', that is... when we are no longer constrained to any specific possibility, such as the physical universe, then perhaps, we are matched with the scope, breadth depth of the plane, and subsequently that of time. If so, any further measure of time becomes moot and irrelevant. If God claims that time will no longer exist for us in the realm of heaven (eternal life) perhaps that heaven is the full plane of existence, where all possibilities are revealed to us, and all determinate actions of manifestation of possibilities are granted to us. I'm just saying...

In conclusion,
1) The Plane of existence is eternal
2) Time parallels the plane of existence and is thus eternal.
3) The plane of Existence hosts all 'Possibilities", being permeated by all bodies of knowledge.
4) Mankind, as a mobile, dynamic roaming agent, dwells in the plane of existence, and 'arrives' upon his inventions, first as a 'possibility' or idea, then as an artifact with purpose and function taken to form. Time is not relevant, except by the dates of invention that we assign.
5) God is not constrained by the physical artifact called the universe. Rather he is the author of all possibilities, and I believe he created the universe, which is derived from one of many possibilities available to God's will to manifest.

While i cannot prove my theories, Istand firm enough behind them that I disagree with Dr Hawkings assertions.

There is a GOD, there is an afterlife, since all life is but a manifestation of a possibility on the plane of existence.

oh, mans you guys. I'm going to have to read all of this tomorrow sometime haha. I need sleep. but I wanted to ask another question to clarify...so what you guys are saying is that the ONLY way to salvation through God, is through Christ and to verbally ask him into your heart to be saved? I'm not saying I believe in one thing, but not the other. I want to believe in something that gives me purpose in life, which would be God, which would make heaven and hell a real place to me. I just have a hard time believing in something I don't have enough answers to. I believe in possibility. perhaps it is selfish of me, but if there is a heaven and hell, I don't want to go to hell for what I believe to be no good reason (just because I didn't go to church every sunday and didn't accept Jesus as my savior). I'm not sure if I can believe that love and faith are one in the same. love is an emotional feeling. faith is trusting in something that cannot be seen. but more on this when I am more awake lol.

No one through the lineage of Adam has been justified through the law. The law was written to show us our inability to fulfill it.

Rom 3:20 Because by the works of the law no man is able to have righteousness in his eyes, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 5:12 For this reason, as through one man sin came into the world, and death because of sin, and so death came to all men, because all have done evil:
Rom 5:13 Because, till the law came, sin was in existence, but sin is not put to the account of anyone when there is no law to be broken.

So in essence, the law was given to reveal sin, and in revealing the law we embrace our inability to fulfill it. For without the law we were unaware of our need of a sacrifice to cover our sins, that sacrifice being Christ. Therefore the law reveals to us our inability to fulfill it.

3:20.. Explains the syllogism between Law and Knowledge of sin. Law begs the question about mans behavior(sins) ...to begin with. Does not say the law was placed there to prove how screwed up we are...(we already knew it by then).

5:12 This essentially explains WHY the law was put in place... It patently suggests that ALL of mankind is in need of the law because ALL are doomed otherwise. Nothing in here to suggest that God put the law to prove to us how screwed up we are....We already had been aware of that ...

5:13 "But sin is not put to account....where no law exists." The entire Hebrew community was about order and preservation of families and communities... There is nothing in these passages to suggest that God gave us these laws, simply to prove to us how weak we are. He gave us the laws to help us from destroying ourselves... There's no other way to say it. Now, if one wishes to derive or deduce that the laws god gave us, make us look pretty bad, Ican see that for sure...I just don't buy the part where his intention was to merely prove our weakness, since that is moot point. I believe firmly that his intention was to protect us, and he gave us some solid rationale as to why we needed the law.

No offense meant, but I see this other (below) as being totally irrelevant. What on earth does it have to do with who instituted time, man or God? It has to nothing to do with the concept that God did or did not put time into place for his creation. Whether the rise till the setting of the sun took a billion years or whether it took twenty four hours, it is still God who designated "On the first day".... before the creation of man. Therefore man could not have instituted time under any theory, for those who believe in the God of the Bible.

This thread started about a perspective of science, that attempts to include or omit the possibility of a god behind it all. It was not inteneded to be a discussion about God per se, or passages from the bible, except where immediate relevance prevails.

You had brought up a biblical definition about day/night... I was merely pointing out the scientific implications behind it...

"So the time/distance between the rising and and setting of the sun could imply the same offsets in degrees, depending on the state of the universe's expansion at that instance. ( His day and night scientifically implies that the earth spins into and away from the light of the sun in a given cycle.) The distance from the sun and the speed of the rotation, together determine the cycle. I am just suggesting that the distance was more compacted back then, Thus, a day cycle back then is actually quicker, relatively speaking than a day cycle in modern times... "[/quote]

Space and Time are tools of the mind

Awesome, going to use that in a tune shortly..

Dog,

We will simply have to agree to disagree on the bottom line.

Wow . . . so much to absorb and comment on!
I'll just state two things;

1 Time doesn't exist, as every physicist is well aware of, it is subjective and exists only by individual perception.

2 Of course (as you all expected) . . . I agree, there is no such thing as the Abrahamic god (or any gods, devils, angels, demons, etc. for that matter).

Wow . . . so much to absorb and comment on!
I'll just state two things;

1 Time doesn't exist, as every physicist is well aware of, it is subjective and exists only by individual perception.

2 Of course (as you all expected) . . . I agree, there is no such thing as the Abrahamic god (or any gods, devils, angels, demons, etc. for that matter).

it may not exist for you, but it exists for me