General Music Chat

I agree with Oate's comments mostly...but want to comment on this statement he makes:

1. The album’s dying. Oates acknowledged that audiences no longer invest the time it takes to absorb a whole album, admitting that splitting up the album into two sides during the LP era made it easier for listeners to digest a string of connected songs. Even though that sounds discouraging artistically, the shift frees up musicians to focus on pouring their energy into recording powerful singles instead of weak and watered-down albums. A single bad track can lead to poor reviews and lackluster sales, while a string of “hot” EPs can build real audience support over time, Oates said.

So my question is this: Why make a weak and watered down album in the first place? There is no rule that says only 4 songs per album should be great.

If you've got an album of great material, it's always better to make a full album, imo. You'll see a faster recoup selling a $15 disk than a $5 one. I find EPs to be pointless for anything but a demo, actually, but there is no reason why you can't sell many types of merchandise at your product table.



Now, regarding your comments about "can't make much on CD sales" I have to disagree. For the indie, you don't have to sell as much to succeed.

By "succeed" I don't mean getting rich. I mean paying the bills and making a living as a musician/songwriter. If you produced your own CD, then pressing it can be reduced to about $1.20 or less. Once your initial studio costs have been recouped, you're making $10-12 per sale of a full-length CD.

If you can sell only 10, 000 copies you've made at least $100,000. If you only sold 3,000 copies you're able to afford being a musician full-time. (assuming you don't have to divide it 5 ways for a band)

The biggest problem one will have to sell that many CDs is that you can't do it to the same audience. You have to travel. You have to keep finding new audiences, and coming up with new product for your regular audiences. You'll also need to be paid for live performance outside of CD sales and get some help with expenses. Not impossible.

It's not easy, but it's not as hard as being a carpenter either. It's a matter of where one focuses their energy.

No one said anything about making a weak, water-down album. I and many musicians I know don't intentionall go in the studio to do weak, watered-down music. So I don't know where you got that idea or interpret my idea to do EPs into a lack of art.

You're thinking only as an artist and nothing is wrong with that. And I wasn't thinking in terms of getting rich, I'm thinking in terms of this economy. Of course you don't want to sell yourself short or your music too cheap, but at some point you have to think like a marketer. And marketers think about the people. I mean, what's your angle? You do a live show and everyone is just enraptured by your awesomeness and you announce that you have CDs over on the table to sell and everyone will run over there? So if you have an "in" and access to a good crowd, you should do well.

Good luck with that.

Chaeya

I made the decision long ago to only produce EPs; the new disc has five songs on it. People don't want to listen to a whole anything anymore; five good songs for five bucks. Most people have an extra five at a gig, not many have an extra $10 or $15.

I made the decision long ago to only produce EPs; the new disc has five songs on it. People don't want to listen to a whole anything anymore; five good songs for five bucks. Most people have an extra five at a gig, not many have an extra $10 or $15.

That's my point, Jimmy. There's a lot of people out of work now and in LA things are expensive. You get charged $10-$15 bucks to go to show, $10 to park and then you have a band wanting $15 bucks for their CD, it gets a bit much, especially if you want to drink and have a good time. Most people will dip in their pocket and drop a $5 bill on a CD with some songs on it. I know plenty of musicians who have their garage full of the 1,000 CDs they spent $3,000-$4,000 to produce and print up and were thinking because they were that badass they were going to sell the CD at their shows for $15. People just don't have the cash like they used to. Now, if you get up to doing a big tour at a festival, then yeah, you might get away with it.

Someone just sent me a link to getting Lady Gaga's new CD for $1.00. They swore to me it was all legal. I then asked them how was Lady Gaga making any money off that? They shrugged their shoulders. I said, I'll stick to Rhapsody.

So you see, we're living in an age where people believe music should be free and how to get something for very little. That's what you're dealing with now.

Chaeya

No one said anything about making a weak, water-down album. I and many musicians I know don't intentionall go in the studio to do weak, watered-down music. So I don't know where you got that idea or interpret my idea to do EPs into a lack of art.

Chaeya

That was point #1 in the link you put up from Richard Oates. His assumption was that anything more than a 5 song EP would be "weak watered-down album" and that was what I was disagreeing with. It certainly doesn't have to be that, and the comment had nothing to do with you.

I mean, what's your angle? You do a live show and everyone is just enraptured by your awesomeness and you announce that you have CDs over on the table to sell and everyone will run over there? So if you have an "in" and access to a good crowd, you should do well.

Good luck with that.

Well, yea, sort of...but "awesomeness" doesn't sell CDs. Passion does. It's not enough that people like you. They have to love you, or you're only background music to a party somewhere.

Everyone who is selling a product has something that is uniquely theirs and meets a need in the customer, whether we're talking about music or widgets.

Some call it "vision" some call it "niche" but it's a way of setting yourself apart from everyone else. For example Pat Benatar represented "tough rock chick" at a time when there wasn't many female singers presenting themselves as edgy rock chicks. The Cars filled the synth-pop-dance void, the Clash filled an english-punk-dance void, Dylan filled a folk-rock-with-a-social-message void...etc.

They each had something that was uniquely them and in doing so, represented a niche of people who loved them for it. Rock music has traditionally played to the base emotions of sex, lust, intoxication, anger, etc....and many bands capitalize on manipulating that. Screamo is for the angry, Lady Gaga is for the lustful, etc...

But even on a smaller scale, each songwriter/recording artist has a unique identity, and can develop a purpose based on that identity, which will make them heroes to people that relate to that identity. Or they can be "liked" by a larger strand of the population and be middle-of-the-road.

You know what happens if you stand in the middle of the road long enough?

All I know is that I seem to be working alot harder than when I was "working" for a living!

I made the decision long ago to only produce EPs; the new disc has five songs on it. People don't want to listen to a whole anything anymore; five good songs for five bucks. Most people have an extra five at a gig, not many have an extra $10 or $15.

That's my point, Jimmy. There's a lot of people out of work now and in LA things are expensive. You get charged $10-$15 bucks to go to show, $10 to park and then you have a band wanting $15 bucks for their CD, it gets a bit much, especially if you want to drink and have a good time.
Chaeya

Then the answer is to find venues that don't suck people dry before they see you.

Did anyone see the kids show "Robots"? Mr Big says something in that movie that every business (including professional musicians) should heed, which is "Find a need, fill a need"

It's not impossible to make your own scene, if you're willing to do the work. In the mid 90s, I organized 19 bands who had good songs with good recordings but most of them couldn't afford manufacturing or didn't have enough songs for an album. We pooled our money to make a compilation CD that promoted the North Texas Christian rock scene. 6 bands ended being signed from that project and we were getting airplay all over America because 24 hour christian rock radio didn't yet exist. We were filling a need that the stations had for more guitar-oriented music. That started a vibrant local music scene in Dallas which ran for several years. I did most of the work involved without pay...but guess who had all the contacts to radio stations and labels when it was done?

In Beaumont TX the bands were complaining about not having any venues...so I rented a drive-in theatre (really cheap since no one uses it anymore) and we had a sold-out crowd because there weren't any venues to go see these bands. The huge crowd showed a few local bars (who weren't having live music at the time) that there was a niche they could fill and that scene went on for several years also. Guess who had all the new venues calling to book bands?

Those concepts can be replicated wherever there is the desire to "make it happen".

LA is a great place to play but if your band would go to less populated markets (where the major bands wouldn't go) you'd find people more appreciative of what you offer.

Shall I wax eloquent about bookings now?







.

All I know is that I seem to be working alot harder than when I was "working" for a living!

If you're doing what you love to do, it doesn't feel so much like work, right?


And if you continue working at your passion, it does eventually become easier than in the beginning.

All I know is that I seem to be working alot harder than when I was "working" for a living!

If you're doing what you love to do, it doesn't feel so much like work, right?


And if you continue working at your passion, it does eventually become easier than in the beginning.

Actually, I'm having the time of my life. Keeping totally busy, AND doing what I love to do it! Working now at getting enough capitol for a trip to a seriously good recording studio. We have a ton of stuff we want to get recorded and out there.

Yes, I agree with you, Yod, filling a need. Sorry, I forgot that part of him talking about "weak, watered down material." But honestly, he is sort of right. Many bands are on a timeline and they rush through making an album. I like to take my time and record a song when I get inspired, not because I have to. There was one song I heard in a clothing shop and I looooved this song. I had to have it. I looked up the artist on Rhapsody, and I went to listen to their album. What a crock!!!! The rest of the album sounded nothing like the song I liked, it was just . . . . f**k around, that's the only thing I could say. I think they bought the song off a producer and he left them on their own in the studio.

LA is a hard place to play because there's nowhere to park, all the neighborhoods are permit parking only, and most clubs that attract a lot of people charge you to get in and charge a lot for drinks. And face it, the big clubs have the best sound systems. You couldn't beat my sound last Saturday night, it was great!

As far as renting out someplace. Here's what I have to deal with as a new band: I just spent the bulk of the last three weeks handing out a bunch of flyers, handing out tickets, talking to strangers about coming to see my band, check out my website and out of all that, two people came. I had 60 confirmed people who I spent the other half of my time calling, my husband calling his friends, and half of them didn't show up. Every band here deals with that. Now if I show up on someone's reality show or go make an ass out of myself somewhere and get some press on it, everyone will want to know who I am, but that could backfire. Recently, a band rented a big rig and went and blocked off the freeway and performed. All that got them was a big fine and a bunch of angry people leaving hate messages on their website.

LA is chocked full of bands and musicians with talent, passion and love for what they do, so it takes a little more to rise to the top here. And the 90s is dead. We have the Internet now, pirated music and an oversaturation of people who all think some god chose them to do music.

So I'll just have fun with it while I can,

Chaeya

LA is chocked full of bands and musicians with talent, passion and love for what they do, so it takes a little more to rise to the top here.

Chaeya

Ever heard the saying, "a prophet is without honor in his hometown"? If I were you, I'd figure out a way to get away from LA. They would appreciate you much more north of Santa Barbara and east of Hemet. If it weren't so dangerous, I might even look south of San Diego.

:::::shudders::::: Strike that last sentence...



Seriously though...why couldn't all the frustrated SoCal bands get together in a public park or a neutral venue once every other month? Even if you had to frankenstein a sound system together, the people attending wouldn't be soaked by parking/drinks/cover and would probably be more attentive/sober.

Do this regularly and a music scene would grow from it, as people anticipated the next gathering.

What is the Cable Access TV system like there? How about a college radio program? Maybe you could find someone who wanted to make a regular program out of promoting "pre-fame" California artists. I'm sure you could come up with creative ways to promote the entire music scene if you spent time in concentrated thought, and a rising tide raises all ships.






.

All I know is that I seem to be working alot harder than when I was "working" for a living!

If you're doing what you love to do, it doesn't feel so much like work, right?


And if you continue working at your passion, it does eventually become easier than in the beginning.

Actually, I'm having the time of my life. Keeping totally busy, AND doing what I love to do it! Working now at getting enough capitol for a trip to a seriously good recording studio. We have a ton of stuff we want to get recorded and out there.

Rock on!



That's the spirit! Go and do what you were born to do. The amount you'll spend on a recording will be less than a college education and could teach you more of what you really want to know.

Actually Yod, the cable thing's been done. One show put you on at some 3 a.m. on a Saturday night and the othe ran off with my money. In the early 2000s when it was a big deal to be an indie artist, there were a bunch of cable shows on catering to local artists, now you're lucky if you can find one.

As far as the park thing, people won't come. That's why bands pay through the nose to go to Sunset because people come. I know. I've played plenty of free clubs and you can't get people to show up. I mean half of my crowd flaked out on me Saturday night. There's just so much to do in Southern California, it's hard to get people to show up unless it's a rap concert. I don't know what it is about rap and hip hop, but these people will show up like the second coming is in town. Hip hop and rap artists sell out shows more than any other genre because people will come out. I don't get it.

I plan on branching out from LA and doing a costal tour. My friend who works her son's band showed me how to contact other bands and maybe open up for them.

The other problem I have is my drummer. He's the weakest link in my entire band because he's just waiting for the bigger better deal to come and swoop him up, so I'm already looking for other drummers to replace him in case he leaves me high and dry.

It's a hard road, but I'm in for the good fight.

Chaeya

I made the decision long ago to only produce EPs; the new disc has five songs on it. People don't want to listen to a whole anything anymore; five good songs for five bucks. Most people have an extra five at a gig, not many have an extra $10 or $15.

Why not just charge 5 bucks for the LP (At least during the transition from Growing to Major league fare)

Actually Yod, the cable thing's been done. One show put you on at some 3 a.m. on a Saturday night and the othe ran off with my money. In the early 2000s when it was a big deal to be an indie artist, there were a bunch of cable shows on catering to local artists, now you're lucky if you can find one.

As far as the park thing, people won't come. That's why bands pay through the nose to go to Sunset because people come. I know. I've played plenty of free clubs and you can't get people to show up. I mean half of my crowd flaked out on me Saturday night. There's just so much to do in Southern California, it's hard to get people to show up unless it's a rap concert. I don't know what it is about rap and hip hop, but these people will show up like the second coming is in town. Hip hop and rap artists sell out shows more than any other genre because people will come out. I don't get it.

I plan on branching out from LA and doing a costal tour. My friend who works her son's band showed me how to contact other bands and maybe open up for them.

The other problem I have is my drummer. He's the weakest link in my entire band because he's just waiting for the bigger better deal to come and swoop him up, so I'm already looking for other drummers to replace him in case he leaves me high and dry.

It's a hard road, but I'm in for the good fight.

Chaeya

Chaeya, I intend to check out the feeds of your show at the Viper room.. In the meantime, I am really sorry that your crowd flaked like that... Sometimes I gotta wonder if that isn't exclusive to So Cal. I've seen similar crowds behave like that when I lived in San Diego... But I have never seen it happen in New York or Texas, for example. I know its a bit of a stretch, cause maybe it does happen in these other places... In any case, its incredibly rude of audiences today. But it seems to be the norm of this territory anymore...