General Music Chat

I feel blessed as well.
Great bunch of guys, good family support.
We switched studios to get our live sound into our CD instead of a studio interpretation of our sound.

It is important to me.

Others have their own path.

I have found the less effect , the more live it sounds.. Also, commercial sound levels do not match Live performance sound levels... So if you want a live sound, ask the engineer to record everything dry, with no boost (By dry, I mean, if you have reverb in mind, mic it in directly from your guitar, voice whatever, and NOT post loop or mixed in later)

A label does nothing except promote a product which THEY own. That might get you some semblance of "fame" but the rest is up to you. If you don't figure out how to take advantage of having your music sent to stores, then you might not even be a one-hit wonder. They aren't going to do it for you.

So my advice to anyone who is still waiting for a record label to take care of your problems is this: Being a great musician is not the same thing as being a recording artist. If you want to be a recording artist, then you have to make GREAT recordings. Period.

Its not hard to write a song. but it sure is hard to write one that has mass appeal.

And that's kind of what we strive for isn't it? Yeah, some people would say that';s a sell out... and they're just doing music for the artistic sake... I'd say good luck with that , and more power to ya.

The trouble with today's music industry is that too many of The A& R folks , the promoters and labels wouldn't necessarily know a world talent if it kicked them in the ass... They don't know what the public really wants (Cause the public doesn't know anymore) So what happens? They go off to their Frankenstein labs and they create Justin Beibers or whatever; because it costs them less money to create the monster in a test tube, than to groom one off the street.

Its so bad that the people on Sunset have to 'claw' their way into getting noticed by some dumb-ass suit.

Then, Club owners don't make a real windfall off of many bands... (Vegas might be the exception) So frankly, the entertainment aspect of the many clubs seems to take a back seat in the books. I think it was Sans who said something about people go to clubs and they really don't give a sh*t about the bands as much as they do about getting drunk. (There are exceptions)
But, Its the current preferred "experience" for the patron... (When they aren't texting each other).

Then, finally... I know of some musicians with a large dagger collection (Figuratively) and scars on their backs . What's that about ? The frenzy to get famous...

It is my opinion that the music industry has been cooked, fried, baked, turned, flipped and served...


I leave you with a quip from a song of mine:

"...went to the bookstore for something to read...
Too many titles for too many needs... "

- Dumbing Me Down - By Me

Chaeya

My wife and others were royally pissed by the tux I wore to her son's wedding but I think you'd have liked it. Long coat, like a frock, with no tie but a diamond stick pin. Flamenco boots and a walking stick.

When the wife saw all the young girls liked it she changed her mind!

If I ever get back to Hollywood we'll have to sashay down the blvd! And yes, you've made me nostalgic - that place has one very special attribute and that is the sense of expectancy - I miss that.

Talbot

Oooh, that's a promise!

Chaeya

Its so bad that the people on Sunset have to 'claw' their way into getting noticed by some dumb-ass suit.

Then, Club owners don't make a real windfall off of many bands... (Vegas might be the exception) So frankly, the entertainment aspect of the many clubs seems to take a back seat in the books. I think it was Sans who said something about people go to clubs and they really don't give a sh*t about the bands as much as they do about getting drunk. (There are exceptions)

But, Its the current preferred "experience" for the patron... (When they aren't texting each other).

I know there are a lot of bands who still talk about getting a record company deal like it's the ultimate goal. Last week my friend's son's band bought out all their tickets to pack people in the club for free because some A&R guy was going to be there. The friends came, but no hide or hair from the record label guy. My drummer is working with a guy signed to a label. This guy's a rapper and I told him that they're gonna drop the band because money-wise it isn't feasible paying for a tour for a whole band when most rappers don't have one. They were supposed to go on tour this month and now it's been pushed back to September, that means it's going to fizzle out. He's signed, but so far he's paying for everything out of pocket.

I live in Orange County and it sucks as far as trying to get people to support original music unless you're punk or EMO. The 20- and 30-somethings here just like to go to bars with sports blaring over the flat screened TVs or loud DJ music and get wasted. They don't give a sh*t about a live band. However, the ones that do like to go up to Hollywood. If I were to play at some bar and let them in for free, they won't go. Been there done that.

However, there's another good thing about playing on Sunset and that is to get noticed by someone's management company. You can get picked up for a festival or open up for someone's tour and that still happens here. Besides getting fans, that's a good point.

Chaeya

Its not hard to write a song. but it sure is hard to write one that has mass appeal.

I disagree....There must be a bazillion songs that don't have a message worth figuring out, but have gone Gold because of the way it was produced and marketed.

I also disagree with the general perception of "hired guns" vs regular members. I've lost enough time & money trying to edit an extremely good live drummer into being a great one in the studio. I've lost enough money trying to get a good guitar player to consider the song over his own personal desire to show how fast he can play, rather than hiring someone who just knows that we need basic chords and something melodic during the interlude. And I'm not going to argue any more with a bassist over what the bottom line should be. I'll hire someone who can hear it the first time....or is at least willing to take direction from the songwriter & producer (me). I could play every instrument myself, but why do that when I can hire the best and tell them what to do?

Then I'll put a band together who can play it. They will know what the part is when they show up for an audition and I'll know if they can pull it off. I've chosen to go without using a regular full-time band for the last 10 years and it was absolutely the best music-career decision I ever made. But the point of the thread isn't about having a regular live band. That's easy to do once you have paying gigs.

This thread is for songwriters who perform live and it's about making a great recording, so you can get to the point of having paying gigs and hiring the band you really want. If you are waiting on a record label (not saying that any of you are) to do it for you, then you are living in a fantasy that ended many years ago and it's time to wake up.

I've noticed there are a quite a few people on BandMix who seem to think that someone else is holding them back, that they need someone else to "discover" and help them. We all need help to advance our career aspirations, but opportunity usually only happens to those who are prepared and ready. Many record labels are only signing artists who have a ready-made project to release. Of those labels who make new recordings, they base their opinion of whether they should sign a "recording artist" on a recording that was made as an indie.

If you want to be a recording artist, it's about making recordings worth buying. There are 300 million people in the USA alone so if one in three hundred like your music, then you are potentially Gold. Finding a niche is how record labels stay alive, and it's the same thing with an individual artist.

Jerry Abbott (Pantera) told me in 1988 that they were going to change from glam-pop rock to hardcore BECAUSE it was a smaller market and they could reach every listener worldwide by advertising in only 2 magazines. To continue in the glam-pop world meant competing with everyone from Van Halen to Def Leopard, with full page ads in Billboard and a huge marketing budget. Yet, once they had secured the loyalty of a specifically hard-core audience, they could begin expanding into other areas of rock. It's called narrow-marketing and it worked well for them.

In the same way, if an artist can discover what makes them unique and narrow-market to that niche, they could survive on sales of 10,000 a year without any help from a manager or label. THEN, the managers and labels would come looking for you and you'd be negotiating from a position of strength without signing your future away.


But the point of the OP was, "If you aren't willing to invest in yourself, then why would anyone else be?"


You guys seem to take your careers seriously so it's probably not directed at you specifically, though it wouldn't hurt if this challenges you, too.

I'm not making any money yet, all the money I have is getting invested in the band, so no one's getting paid yet. That's why I got guys that believe in the potential and the music.

Chaeya

I was talking about studio recordings, not live band situations. Yea, I hate hired guns for "live" and that's why I started going solo. Couldn't depend on good volunteers or great paid guys when it comes to rehearsals.

For live, all you need are people who show passion with a basic level of ability.


I wasted a lot of time and money investing in a "band" that would fall apart 6 months after releasing a CD because the drummer ran off with the bass players wife, or other such non-related-to-the-music stupidity. Once had a drummer and bassist both take night jobs as soon as our CD came out, making it totally pointless to have spent 10k on a CD since we couldn't go out and play.

Not to mention that you have to create a new promo package almost as soon as you book a set of new gigs. Nope....not going to go back to being a garage band again after having done that for so long.

I'm not making any money yet, all the money I have is getting invested in the band, so no one's getting paid yet. That's why I got guys that believe in the potential and the music.

Chaeya

I was talking about studio recordings, not live band situations. Yea, I hate hired guns for "live" and that's why I started going solo. Couldn't depend on good volunteers or great paid guys when it comes to rehearsals.

For live, all you need are people who show passion with a basic level of ability.

That's why my husband can play all the instruments, so I don't need to worry about that, and my drummer is a pro live and session drummer. Everyone in my band has been in the field over 20 years in pro situations (I mean working for named artists) so we don't waste our time with weak players.

Chaeya

Most of the tunes I've heard with hired guns are LAME. They'll put in the same amount of "work" as the amount of time they think your pay is worth it to them. A much better situation is getting a working band around you that actually LIKES the music, ENJOYS working on it AND is willing to take the same risk investing time and THEIR equal share of money into the project. Anything less is LAME. (I'm available to be your hired gun bass player/lead singer. Not cheap but good...)

Almost everything you hear on the radio is done with hired guns since the late 60s, with the exception of a very few bands. Even your major stars/bands hire people instead of playing all instruments themselves. Example: The Beatles weren't allowed to use their regular drummer if they wanted to work with George Martin.

The New Bohemians (What I Am Is What I Am) had a gold record in the 80s where the bassist was the only person that played on every song of the CD, and the lead guitarist only did a couple of solos on the whole thing.

I'm sure this isn't unusual...in the world of making great recordings.

And to think I thought the Beatles played all those horns and strings on thier later records! It was sidemen all along, thanks!

Why would anyone invest in me? Are you kidding......it's me! Extremely good looking, extremely witty and extremely talented. What more could they want?

Why would anyone invest in me? Are you kidding......it's me! Extremely good looking, extremely witty and extremely talented. What more could they want?

Now see that man has the right idea ...

Almost everything you hear on the radio is done with hired guns since the late 60s, with the exception of a very few bands. Even your major stars/bands hire people instead of playing all instruments themselves. Example: The Beatles weren't allowed to use their regular drummer if they wanted to work with George Martin.

Not true that they weren't allowed. Ringo Star was put into the band because he had a lot of pull in the industry as a session drummer, and that was the only way they could get signed with their label. That was the deal and that was how Ringo got in and Pete Best was out.

Yes, most people do use session players and different guys who tour. However, it comes down to politics. For instance, if a named producer is working on the album, he most likely has "his people" he uses for recordings. They help create their signature sound. My producer would only use me and another lady for backing vocals, his guitarist, his horn guys and the bassist. Also, there are session players who are "popular" enough to give an Artist push just to have them on their recordings. For instance, back in the day people wanted the "Tower of Power" horns, Paulinho de Costa on percussion and Narada Michael Walden on drums. If you look at most successful R&B albums from the 70s and early 80s you saw these people on almost ALL of the albums. Solar Records had their people who recorded everything because Leon Sylvers was writing everything. My friend just recorded a metal CD and his producer brought in his "people" to record.

The reason you'd get a different band is because again you go politics of wanting a "look" or you have the artist wanting certain people or the band performs. Most top artists have very little input in the studio. Often they just pick already-written songs, and all they have to do is just show up and sing.

That's why these guys are broke! Yeah, they're a star, but they're owing the record companies huge amounts of money because it really has nothing to do with capability, it's politics and blowing through tons of money. I watched it happen first hand. The people really getting a good deal were the producers.

However, for more indie players and lesser known artists who don't have big label money behind them or some corporate millionaire, their band is recording AND touring.

So it's not a matter of a "must" that you have to have different touring and session musicians. It's all about who was pumping money into you and who everybody wanted. The producer wanted their people to play and sometimes the artist had people they wanted to be in their band to which the artist didn't always have the sayso when it came to recording. Then you had other politics going on such as touring musicians and session musicians with "pull".

Cisco plays all his own stuff because he knows how he wants it and he doesn't like explaining himself when he can just do it himself. He's perfectly capable. Live is another matter, our bass player comes in and does his thing on stage. Our drummer does both live and recording, and he's working with a couple of signed acts as both their recording drummer and their tour drummer.

Prince is another artist who does everything himself. Back in the 80s he was recording all the music plus singing most of the backgrounds on his albums, the Time, Vanity 6, and all his little sub bands.

I worked as a session vocalist for most of the 80s, so I witnessed most of this stuff go down.

Chaeya

Almost everything you hear on the radio is done with hired guns since the late 60s, with the exception of a very few bands. Even your major stars/bands hire people instead of playing all instruments themselves. Example: The Beatles weren't allowed to use their regular drummer if they wanted to work with George Martin.

Not true that they weren't allowed. Ringo Star was put into the band because he had a lot of pull in the industry as a session drummer, and that was the only way they could get signed with their label. That was the deal and that was how Ringo got in and Pete Best was out.

That was the "deal" because Pete Best was a good live drummer, but not a great world-class studio player for making records. I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that Ringo Starr was the first person to use a pillow to deaden the sound of his bass drum. Ringo was certainly one of the most versatile drummers of the 60s, able to play jazz, rock, classical, folk, oom-pah, whatever....

You make the case that "some" bands have both and I concede your point, but that is the exception, not the rule. I further concede that a band who plays regularly together has a "feel" about them that's hard to achieve in a sterile environment, so I prefer to hire studio musicians who play live together in a band whenever possible.

Please don't get me wrong. If you have a band of great musicians and you think they can make a great record, then by all means record them! I've tried it both ways and found that hiring the best musicians available for studio was cheaper in the long run, and their parts were usually (though not always) better overall.

You (Chaeya) have a great band already and they totally rock on the recordings you've got. Hopefully they stay together and you never have to worry about making new promo-paks....but you still have to sell CDs once you've got the recording situation figured out.

Just to clarify, the intended audience of this post is "songwriters" who want to become recording artists. I'm saying they don't have to be signed to a record label to make a great record. I'm saying there is not much chance that someone is going to invest in them as recording artistis until they have proven they are a good investment. And I'm saying that they shouldn't wait for studio-caliber musicians to show up for band rehearsals to consider making a great recording.

Why would anyone invest in me? Are you kidding......it's me! Extremely good looking, extremely witty and extremely talented. What more could they want?

Proof that you can make recordings that people will buy. I liked the music you've posted btw. You definitely have the talent, now all you need is something that makes people think, "the only place I can get the song(s) I want to buy is from Mike". It's really not that hard but requires concentrated thinking and introspection.

Here's an example:

I once played a showcase where these 2 women played separate sets next to each other. BOTH had a lot of talent.

Girl 1 was very flashy and technically perfect. Her stage presence and show were extremely professional and the majority of people in the room really liked watching her. Those who weren't crazy about her were just sort of indifferent towards her.

Girl 2 was raw and going on chudspah (guts) and passion. She wasn't as good a singer technically but her voice oozed with sincerity. She dressed way down and stood kind of awkwardly while playing guitar, not really very feminine or attractive physically. I'd say that only about 60% of the people there liked her. Those who didn't absolutely love her, (like my wife) hated her music utterly.

Girl 2 sold more CDs than anyone else that night, though Girl 1 had more people who seemed to like her performance. What was the difference? The passion they produced in the people listening.

Like Jesus said, "I wish you were hot or cold. The lukewarm I will spit out" (paraphrasing). This relates to music also. The successful songwriter isn't trying to impress someone with talent, they're trying to touch them emotionally in a way that moves them to a reaction.

It's not good enough to be "good" or even extremely talented. Who cares???? You have to create an emotion in the listener that forces them to stop what they're doing and go find your record. To succeed over a long time, people can't just like you...they have to love you. You need to give them something they can't find anywhere else.

When I think of "lukewarm" rock, I think of REO Speedwagon. They were good and I've enjoyed a couple of concerts they did, but they never really did anything that made me want to pull over and find their record in a store.

But something original or different would usually pique my interest, like The Cars or Police or The Clash or whatever....

I don't know how this story relates individually to any of you, but the basic premise is the difference between a recording artist and a musician.






.

Thanks for your kind words, Yod.

I understand you, Yod, but here's the problem. You can't make that much on CD sales anymore. Honestly, unless you're selling other products like T-shirts and other products, you will not recoup your money. That's why most of the big name stars like Beyonce, Lady Gaga, Riahnna get product endorsements from make up, clothing, and the rest of the cash is in licensing the music out to movies, tv shows and commercials. CD sales will not do enough to keep a band going these days.

Piracy is out of control. Even now, people overseas will buy your physical CD and put it up on pirate sites most of which are located in Russia and other parts of Asia. The bigwigs are doing their best to go after them, but you shut one down, two more spring up in its place.

Here's an interesting article from John Oates talking about doing EPs.

http://spinme.com/2011/04/five-things-j ... -business/

You can do a 6-8 song EP and sell it for $5 at your show, pointing out to your fans that you're giving them 1-3 songs free. They hear the word "free" they get inspired to buy. People will be quicker to drop $5 than $10 and $15 for a CD. I want to invest in a CD duplicator (about $2500) and it prints in color directly off the CD. I can do the artwork and get the insert booklet printed cheap for around $300 and the ink for the duplicator only costs like $300, so that's $600 for 1,000 CDs @ $5, that's a profit of $4,400 off a $600 investment and the duplicator will soon pay for itself.

If you want to make it as a songwriter then your sole concentration should be on music licensing because that's the only place you're going to see any worthwhile money, and build yourself a reputation in that industry so you can keep putting your songs out.

Chaeya