celticpiping wrote:a difference of opinion on say, tongues as a sign of the indwelling of the holy spirit is one thing,
I Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
celticpiping wrote: or maybe infant baptism
There are zero examples of infant baptisms in the new testament. Babies can't sin. In fact
Matt 18:3 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And since baptism is for the remission of sins....
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
...Then infant Baptism is another idea of man and should be a another non-issue.
celticpiping wrote:....but a "command" that worship be voice only.
That goes from slight difference to departure from orthodoxy in my small opinion.
That command can literally be read. And can literally be obeyed. Just sing praise. That and that only is what is commanded in the new testament. Ephesians 5:19 , Colossians 3:16 That is what I try to do with all matters of worship. Adding anything else is just that. Adding to the prescribed method of worship. To add to God's plan shows a lack of respect for the authority of scripture and the perfection of
Christ's Church.
We can see how God feels about "little" changes to his prescribed worship in the story of Nadab and Abihu. Leviticus 10:1-2 1And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
celticpiping wrote: btw, how can it be that :
1) OT musical instrument worship is received/encouraged by God
There are instances where OT use of instruments is negative.
Amos 6:1Woe to them........
6:5 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;
celticpiping wrote: btw, how can it be that :
2) NT worship is vox only
I don't see how this is even a question. It can be that NT worship is vox only because that is literally all you can find in the NT.
celticpiping wrote: btw, how can it be that :
3) Heavenly worship will clearly be via musical instruments/voice
It can be that way in heaven for the same reasons it can be any way God chooses it to be. The operative phrase is
God chooses. In heaven there will be no imperfect flesh. There will also be no imperfect man made steel, brass, and wooden instruments. There will be God's instruments and I'm banking that they
will be perfect. God chose to tell us to worship him in song with our voices. That is what I will do.
celticpiping wrote: so...why the haitus in between
sense=0
It is not not my place to question God's will. It is my place to obey, to worship God as he commands.
celticpiping wrote: oh, also I spose I could begin arguing about our very lives being an act of worship, poured out as a result of being bought at a price: and as such, if you're singing stuff that isn't, you're choosing to use that voice for something other than worship: which seems a double standard or sorts.
I don't follow that. There are big parts of our lives that are not worship. Work for instance which we are commanded to do. And again I submit the sports example or the entertainment example. We are clearly commanded to behave as Christians all the time but we are not worshiping all the time.
celticpiping wrote: And not to mention the biblical teaching that "how can a fountain issue forth both good and bad water"
Don't really follow the example here. Good water would be the worship we offer. And living a Christian life in our work and leisure activities would still be good water.
celticpiping wrote: Sorry dude, but one could fire a veritable theological howitzer through that teaching.
It just doesn't make logical sense at all to me.
I believe that using clear biblical examples (which I require to have a Christian belief) effectively disarmed your howitzer.
I.E. The only examples we are to follow are of Christ's church. Christ's church is commanded to sing. Christ's church is not commanded to play. That is nothing but plain logic.
celticpiping wrote:ps. it's stuff like this the enemy uses to prevent some folks from even considering the claims of Christ(MHO)
This makes me think of the dangerous concepts of "I'm ok you're ok." Follow your own path" "The church of your choice." "Many paths, on destination"
Christ said in John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
That indicates one. Which brings us to Eph 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
There are some churches who are spineless. They tell you what you want to hear. This reminds me of this passage.
I Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
The only way we can please God in this way (speak the same thing and have no division) is to use the NT as our only guide. I.E. When hundred of years passed from the institution of Christ's church and people tried to introduce musical instruments it caused major division. The solution? Do only what the bible said. Speak the same thing. The same thing to be spoken is that the NT church has only singing as musical worship. It really is that simple.
Again I submit that the only reason you so readily accept instruments is that your parents and parents parents etc etc accepted it. When it's put in front of you like this and
you can read the associated passages for yourself well... it's up to you. It's not my opinion. It's what you can read in God's inspired word.
celticpiping wrote: pps. ok "If the scriptures didn't say to do it we must not add it."
applied to it's logical extent...anything we use todat that the NT does not "authorize" would be banned from the worship service.
Can you see how crazy that reasoning would be?
Microphones, lecturns, overhead lights, collection plates, sound recorders,................
I don't see how that could be viewed as crazy at all. I see it as scripturally sound. As respecting the authority of scripture. No items of worship may be added to or modified. Using mics amplify sound. It doesn't modify the sound or the message. It provides clarity and provides a way to reach more ears. It's just louder. More importantly an example of amplification was Christ's use of water. In Luke 5 He got into a boat and asked to be pushed out. Sound carries over water. It didn't modify the message. It just upped the volume. None of those items you listed modify the worship. We have to have lights to see. We have to have something to put the collection in. Sound recorders are unseen and simply repeat the message for those who otherwise would not be able to hear. So none of those things change the worship. They don't add an element to the worship. Instruments add a whole element to the worship. And they adversely affect the singing in my opinion. They also encourage members to sit back and not participate.
If we respect the authority of God's written will for us. If we simply follow the NT pattern of the original church. We will do the following.
1. Lord's Supper - The New Testament and early church history record that Christians met on the first day of every week (Sunday) to worship God and remember Christ (Acts 20:7; I Corinthians 11:23-34; 16:1-2).
2. Prayer - (Acts 2:42; Philippians 4:6-7; I Thessalonians 5:17-18).
3. Singing - God's word authorizes only vocal music and specifically singing (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 2:12). The New Testament shows no use of mechanical instruments of music in worship to God by the church Christ established. Church history notes no such use for nearly 700 years after the New Testament was completed. It is an innovation of men, not of God.
4. Giving - Free-willed, cheerful generous, and every week (Acts 20:35; I Corinthians 16:1-2; 2 Corinthians 8:9).
5. Preaching of the Word - The gospel of Christ, not men's doctrines nor entertainment, saves and strengthens us (Acts 2:42; 20:7; Romans 10:17; I Corinthians 1:18-23)[/b]
