General Music Chat

Craig,

Agreed, however the problem is there are fewer and fewer (we'll use guitar players but could be any instrument) who posses the talent to hold the interest of the patrons. I think Irminsul said it best, when the pool table or big screen are more interesting then the band, well the rest kinda speaks for it's self.

Well, the pool table being more interesting than the band kind of speaks for itself. LOL

But I find it hard to believe there are not talented musicians out there. Maybe there is a shortage of talented "bands" and/or "songwriters" out there instead? I mean, musical equiptment is more plentiful and affordable than ever before, and more of it is being purchased. You see kids that simply blow you away on YouTube as well. The talent is out there, perhaps it's not being put together well?

As an example, many of the guys in our band, including me, are 30's and up, and yet I still feel we can compete with volumes of the bands I see on MySpace. Not for a recording contract from the majors of course, who look for 20 somethings, but I mean musically speaking. I often find some element missing in most bands on there. Maybe they have good musicians but the vocalist is not great, or maybe the vocalist and musicians are good, but the songwriting is sub-par. Or the songs are poorly arranged. There are certainly lots of good bands on MySpace, but it seems there are far more average ones.

RhythmMan hit in on the head though about practice. In times past, there was probably far more time spent on musicianship, whereas today with cable, satellite, online multi-player games, and internet in general, perhaps people are filling their time up entertaining themselves, more than learning how to entertain others?

There it is, in a nutshell:
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. . . posses the talent to hold the interest of the patrons . . .
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(even if it means - gasp - practicing)

I dunno, Rhythmman...I have seen some pretty astounding musicians being completely ignored at a bar by the pool playing, TV watching patrons. All their practicing and mastery of their instrument didn's seem to do them as much good as a pair of high heels and a tight dress (and a sex change) would have done them. Sucks, doesnt it.

Another detriment. I believe when your very accomplished, the average music patron can't relate.

I always think of the line in Amadeus. When the king says to Amadeus "The ear can only hear so many notes in one night, remove some".

Yeah, Irminsul, I agree with you.
I have heard some really terrific musicians, here in CT, in Berlin and in Hamden.
. . . there are some really, really good unknowns . . .
And there will always people who care enough about music to do whatever they have to do to be the best they can be.
I suspect, though, that there are more people nowadays who expect instant gratification.
Or, maybe more people just think they're special, or something; I dont know . . .
Or, maybe I'm just expecting too much of the average musician . . .
But - if they're excellent, and yet, - being ignored, then they chose the wrong spot to play.
But, hey, you've got to admit: no matter where you play, a tight dress on a shapley figure can still be distracting.

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Wegman, I think you're also right, about saying that the average music patron can't relate to excellent musicianship . . . .
Probably most of them haven't been exposed to enough excellent musicianship in the first place, to recognize or appreciate it; so they just accept what they're used to . . .
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Part of the trick is to write 'A-class' music, and perform it with excellence. Most musicians just don't care enough; they just want to have fun. And, hey, I guess that's all right.
Different folks, and all . . .
But, I guess there's more, actually. The actual style of the music you write/play has to be something that'll help draw them away from the C-class material they're used to.
We have to remember, that 'C' stands for average. In any group of people, most of them will be average, by the very definition.
Both musicians and fans . . .
It's hard to blame the audience . .
I may not enjoy listening to average music as much, but I guess I forgive the musicians, if they're already trying as hard as they can.
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But - I suspect most musicians are not meeting up to more than 35 - 40% of their own potential . . . dunno . . .
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Wegman, I remember that line in Amadeus. "The ear can only hear so many notes in one night, remove some."
I was aghast . . . . what an ignorant individual . . .
He was an 'E'-class musician, dictating to a Quntuple-A-class musician.
And - in that situation - hey, what can one do? He paid the bills.
. . . and . . .
Aren't the fans the same as the king in Amedeus?

I have been trying to make the point all along that to be a successful musician, there are many factors that must be in place.

I like to refer to it as the "IT" factor. Some performers just have everything working for them. They have the talent, charisma, and the stage presence to command attention. Others though phenominally talented, you just kinda forget their there.

For a performer they alone need to posses this trait. For a band it becomes more difficult. Everyone in the band must posses this trait. I am sure that many here can attest that a band is as strong as it's weakest member, and that one member can break the band.

I maintain that this is why success in the music business eludes so many.

Another detriment. I believe when your very accomplished, the average music patron can't relate.

I always think of the line in Amadeus. When the king says to Amadeus "The ear can only hear so many notes in one night, remove some".

Archduke Ferdinand of Austria was known for his "tin ear" and hopelessness as a student of music, but he sure was a prophet about one thing - the decreasing attention span of the common man.

And as for "making it" in music. That is a subjective term. I consider that I've made it if A) my music income takes care of my needs and B) I can do what I want with my music. I've attained "B" and A is almost there, so I cannot complain. But the reason I started this thread was not out of personal therapy. It was because a whole lot of good professional musicians are dealing with some crappy attitudes of their profession that need to change.

As the saying goes - It's not all about me.

Another detriment. I believe when your very accomplished, the average music patron can't relate.

I always think of the line in Amadeus. When the king says to Amadeus "The ear can only hear so many notes in one night, remove some".

Archduke Ferdinand of Austria was known for his "tin ear" and hopelessness as a student of music, but he sure was a prophet about one thing - the decreasing attention span of the common man.

Could not agree more. This is why I mentioned the technology factor. We should be progressing musicially, not regressing. All I need to say is take note of what is popular music and TV and well, I rest my case. As you/me/others have stated it is because of an immediate gratification society. I/we/they don't have the patience to sit through a 2 hour symphony. Think about this. Go to basically any public event and how many can sit the entire time without using their cell phone?

And as for "making it" in music. That is a subjective term. I consider that I've made it if A) my music income takes care of my needs and B) I can do what I want with my music. I've attained "B" and A is almost there, so I cannot complain. But the reason I started this thread was not out of personal therapy. It was because a whole lot of good professional musicians are dealing with some crappy attitudes of their profession that need to change.

As the saying goes - It's not all about me.

And I sincerely thank you as this has been an excellent thread imo. I think alot of people here have added some really excellent content and there is alot to be learned.

I agree that one has "made it" when they have accomplished the A & B you speak of with A being compulsory.

IMO and as I so stated early on the bench mark of being a "Pro" musician is that is solely how you support yourself. Anyone else IMO is a amateur making a little side cash.

Yes it is an injustice to work so hard for so many years to hone your talent and then be expected to play for free. But, if it comes down to either playing for free or not playing at all I'll take playing for 'free'. Although I have found that most of the time it's not really playing for free. I played a couple of 'free' gigs this last summer and they worked out quite well. At one restaurant in the mountains they gave us free lodging and meals which was worth a couple hundred dollars! We were ready to pay for the food and lodging but they insisted on the huge gratuity. It was nice. At another restaurant just a few blocks from my house they loaded us up with free food and drinks and the audience and crew liked us so much it was well worth it to play for 'free'. Of course it is really cool to get paid generously or even fairly.

"Music hath alarums to wild the civil breast" - Tuli Kupferberg

<a>www.myspace.com/dalenthedustups </a>

Yes it is an injustice to work so hard for so many years to hone your talent and then be expected to play for free. But, if it comes down to either playing for free or not playing at all I'll take playing for 'free'. Although I have found that most of the time it's not really playing for free. I played a couple of 'free' gigs this last summer and they worked out quite well. At one restaurant in the mountains they gave us free lodging and meals which was worth a couple hundred dollars! We were ready to pay for the food and lodging but they insisted on the huge gratuity. It was nice. At another restaurant just a few blocks from my house they loaded us up with free food and drinks and the audience and crew liked us so much it was well worth it to play for 'free'. Of course it is really cool to get paid generously or even fairly.

"Music hath alarums to wild the civil breast" - Tuli Kupferberg

<a>www.myspace.com/dalenthedustups </a>

Dale (hello by the way) I'm really glad you brought this up and I can't believe I haven't mentioned it before - trade out is pay! That's totally acceptable to me in many circumstances as long as its understood up front. There are also many venues who will offer you a modest fee AND some trade (like food or services) and those can be great jobs to work. I did that at Sundance a few times, and believe me after staying up there at that beautiful resort and eating at their five star restaurant for free, I had no interest in the cash amount I would have received for them.

Good point, Dale/Irminsul.
And - welcome here, Dale.
I did this just (barter) just yesterday - it's on the thread 'acoustic musicians, under "USA."
I was basically just helping someone our who had a cancellation and -
. . . well read the thread . . . I'm glad I did it . . .
And, another thing - you'll often make a closer friend when you barter with them . . .
What they have to offer is cheaper for them than spending money.
Just as it's easier for you to play, than it is for you to pay out a wad of cash to pay some bill or the other . . .
Often, the value of what you get can be more than you expect, although it's not really costing the other guy any more money . . . .
Hmmm,
Now if I could only work out some kind of attangement with my phone company . . . .