General Music Chat

Yep. You reach a point in every room where the vocal mics will feedback at all frequencies. No EQ magic can fix that. You just have to turn down.

As a guitarist I understand the need for sonic interaction between amp, speakers, strings, tonewoods and how it affects our tone and sustain. We depend on this interaction when we play. That is one of the reasons Jimi stood right in front of his Marshall stack and why Carlos Santana walks the stage during sound check and tapes an X on all the sonic sweet spots for singing sustain. What many don't realize is that you can get great sonic interaction, tone and sustain without playing at 130db. A small 20watt Fender Deluxe Reverb cranked wide open very close to the guitarist sounds awesome while a 200w stack only set on "2" sounds weak and lame. Different tools for different purposes. Remember that many of the greatest guitar tones of all time have been recorded with small combo amps like the Supro and Fender Champ. 5 watts wide open just sounds great when you have Jimmy Page, Alan Holdsworth, or EVH on the axe.

The same is true for drums. Many great drum tracks were recorded with a controlled or muted kit so the player could wail away without the snare bleeding all over the rest of the drums.

Excess within control.

We have a pretty good PA, but at our rehearsal space we use electronic drums, so I've been pretty good at making Cisco and the bass player keep it down, plus no one argues with our drummer, he flats out yells at them. I love having back up. But then when we record, he hits the hell out of the drums saying the songs make him feel good. Ha ha.

Chaeya

If you rehearse at a lower volume, you can hear all the details and fix stuff if it needs fixing.[/code]

If you rehearse at a lower volume, you can hear all the details and fix stuff if it needs fixing.[/code]

Exactly!

If you rehearse at a lower volume, you can hear all the details and fix stuff if it needs fixing.[/code]

Agreed

Actually if you remember the great drummer you have has to play at a certain level to get the right snaps out,, that is like a great starting point.

We used to carry around a large triamp system and mic everything including snare and kick bass. All the amps were always turned in and everything came from the PA. This was the only way I could figure, to get a good sound in a tiny bar. Sound Babe was CRUCIAL..

We used this to principle to rehearse in a small room, and I have recordings I'll post to show how well it works.

I'll put up in a few minutes. called BAD LOVING LIVE. Recorded in a 12 by 15 room. I've been over this before.

It all depends on the acoustics of the room, most of the time anyways. The bigger the room, the easier it is to hear yourself over the drummer. Best place I ever rehearsed was the garage to the house I grew up in with my first band. Everything was easy to decipher in that space.

"If you are a drummer and you show up with a set of North drums and 27 cymbals (including five china caps) you are probably too loud before you even start playing." aiki_mcr


Not many players out there use North drums, seeing there long since manufactured. And North drums were about projection. Not a set-up one should show up with in abasement or garage rehearsal. A large cymbal set-up isn't any more loud than just three cymbals. More natural reverb, but not more volume. All cymbals have a threshold of volume. You can beat them to death, like many of today's drummers unfortunately do, but that will not give you more volume. That just creates constant threshold of volume. So that becomes a matter of touch and style of playing.

Whats up?

Not many players out there use North drums, seeing there long since manufactured. And North drums were about projection. Not a set-up one should show up with in abasement or garage rehearsal. A large cymbal set-up isn't any more loud than just three cymbals. [...snip...] That just creates constant threshold of volume. So that becomes a matter of touch and style of playing.

I was actually engaging in hyperbole to emphasize my point. I once owned a set of North drums and wound up selling them for much less than they were worth.

Drum volume, IME, is a function of a number of factors starting with the size of the drums. A larger kick is likely to be louder. The heads you use will affect this. And, yes, certain drums are just loud by nature. My Tama Rockstar kit is middling loud, I think. The Gretsch kit from the other night was positively deafening.

Every instrument has players who do certain things that are red flags for me. The excessive number of cymbals is a drummer red flag. With rare exceptions, it generally indicates a drummer who emphasizes volume over style. I think that some of them, in fact, use the constant wash of cymbals hit too hard in an attempt to mask the shortcomings in their playing. China cap symbols, in particular, seem to be favored by such drummers.

Anther one is two snares.

Oh, and a double bass pedal. Almost none of the music I play has a place in it for double bass, so it seems like just making more work for yourself with no real benefit. And it's a hallmark of a pounder.

None of these guarantees a problem drummer. Right off the top of my head I can think of exceptions. But they're still red flags and I'm increasingly loath to ignore them.

I have been known to play guitar as loud as anyone in my area thru the years, but it kinda kills everything.

When we got back together a couple of years ago we started rehearsing at our bassist studio. No amps, just plug a preamp in the board, mic the drums in another room and singer in vocal room. It really helped us as a band cause you can hear everything so clean and precise that it showed the sloppy spots, that we all needed to work on. SInce then Ive found that our onstage volumes and dynamics have improved dramatically.

Its funny I can remember playing in bands and never really hearing the drummer, I would watch his stick on the snare to keep time! LOL

"Oh, and a double bass pedal. Almost none of the music I play has a place in it for double bass, so it seems like just making more work for yourself with no real benefit. And it's a hallmark of a pounder."

I'm not a pounder. Thousands and thousands of drummers using double pedals are not pounders. I use a lot of cymbals, too, and quite a few chinas. BTW, If you like Zep and Elvis, Bonham was definitely a pounder, and Ron Tutt used dble bass for a time with Elvis. Had a pretty big set up.

I believe you just need to find a drummer who plays with the touch you want, regardless of their equipment.

And there's always sound shields.

I'm not a pounder.
[...snip...]
And there's always sound shields.

As I said, Red Flags.

That doesn't guarantee a problem. I said I could think of exceptions. But it's still a Red Flag.

If sound shields are needed, the drummer's too loud.

Its funny I can remember playing in bands and never really hearing the drummer, I would watch his stick on the snare to keep time! LOL

I read this statement and it gave me furiously to think.

So I thought. And I thought. Till all that thinking made me realize I needed to articulate what it was I thunk.

You know, the "no volume control on the drums" thing works both ways. You can't turn 'em down if they're too loud, but you also can't turn 'em up if they're not loud enough. Most bands don't (or at lease didn't) have the equipment to mic the drums so the only recourse for the drummer was to buy loud drums and set them up for maximum volume. That creates a problem in situations where less volume is desirable.

Things have changed, though. I, personally, have a PA with plenty of mics to mic the drums. It's not even difficult. Plus I can provide a separate monitor for the drummer with his own personal monitor mix.

So the situation you describe should just never happen anymore, IMO.