General Music Chat

General point - You seem to be holding professional musicians to an unrealistically high standard of employment compared to other professionals.

Absolutely.

And, unfortunately, for musicians, this is a realistic, though unfair standard IMO.

Take it or leave it.

I prefer not to take it - and it needs to be changed. Sometimes its not good to just sit around and wail about "the way it is".

Ok then ..... lets try out this example for the hell of it.....

If your one that believes that a department should be able to pay for itself .... then perhaps you would reason with ..... a band should be paid from the income they solely produce.

If this is agreed then.....

If a band brings in 50 people (at any type performance) at $10 a ticket .... then the band is paid in the following manner ....

$500 - Band Fee = promoter/venue owner earnings

So to state that a professional band deserves more than a lousy $300 for doing a performance is great if they are first producing the income to allow for their paycheque.

You're veering from topic again. The question isn't on amounts (which could be another thread) but on pros getting asked to play for free.

Gopher,

You said it better then I ever could.

Irminsul,

I don't agree with this scenario, let me make that clear. I think it sucks that musicians are treated this way. But as gopher said, supply and demand. Maybe it is because we love our craft so much that we will do if for free. I don't know.

Let me also make it clear that by no means am I saying that performers/bands can't make money and it's a futile endeavor. No. What I am saying is you have be phenominally good, and have a meriad of other factors going for you outside of talent, what I refer to as the "IT" factor. Some just have it and are born to entertain, most try or fake it but don't.

I will continue to beat, slog, and drag this dead horse. 90% of musicians do not have the skills to pay the bills but they think a record contract is right on the horizon, and they should get paid big money to play anywhere like they are a Beetles reunion or something.

Wake up.

If anyone is playing music and supporting themselves doing so, kudos to them. They should be very proud of that accomplishment because they have reached a level very few ever will.

I think it sucks that musicians are treated this way. But as gopher said, supply and demand.

Wegman, I think you hit the nail on the head here, and possibly even more than you realize.

Supply and demand: One of it's principles is that when supply is high, prices go down. Let me tell you something.... supply is higher than it ever has been.

When you can find professional companies like Gibson, Fender, et al, selling decent entry level music equiptment in Target and Best Buy and seemingly everywhere else, then that is a clue that more than ever, people are buying musical instruments on an unprecedented scale.

While many of those may do it as a hobby, many others, from ever younger ages, are mastering instruments with an eye toward careers, fame and fortune.

Add to that our culture of "celebrity worship" and you have every Tom, Dick and Jane, pursuing the spotlight.

In the past, pursuing music as a goal, was looked down on. "Get a real job" These days, that chorus is not echoed nearly as loudly. Parents are buying their kids musical instruments as never before. And with the relative ease and cost effectiveness of digital music recording equiptment, distribution through the internet, fame through YouTube, etc... it all just fuels it that much more.

The amazing thing to me, is that with competition being stiffer than at any other time, with that many more millions of musicians bringing stuff to the table, you would think that we would be rewarded with truly innovative and exceptional artists and bands creating almost a "golden age" of music, but instead the majority of them seem to be adding to an epidemic of soul-less cookie-cutter crap.

I cannot seem to pull this conversation out of the "club venues are the only consideration" hole, but I will keep trying. Let me reiterate - there are SCADS of other venues for professional musicans to persue, and many of them are not profit driven in the least. Continuing to bang on the club thing is really seeing this issue through a pinhole.

Let me give you an example. You want to redecorate your home. You track down an interior decorator's work you like, and you hire him. You don't ask them to do it for free because, well, that would be stupid. They are professionals and work for a living. Now are you weighing their services from a profit motive? Planning on charging the neighbors to come in and oggle at your new curtains and moulding work? No. You are hiring someone for a service they provide professionally. Same with musicians. The same musician who plays a concert hall and hopes to sell alot of tickets and CDs will be hired by a corporation for their Christmas party. Is the coporation looking to make a profit on the Christmas party? Please. They have a budget and they like your music so they offer you the job. You accept it or turn it down. No problem. But there Is a problem when they ask a pro to play for free, and they would not ask a pro in any other service to do the same. Hence this thread.

On a historic note, the industrialist-capitalist age has been decimating for musicians. Prior to that, musicians had "patrons" who ranged from mildly wealthy barons and land owners to Popes and emperors (like Archduke Ferdinand of Austria). Turlough O'Carolan, a 16th century Irish harper, traveled about and played his music, paying his way by writing music for his hosts and naming the piece after them. I realize the age of itinerant musicans and patrons are gone, but where music and musicians used to have an honored position in society, they are now thrown into the dog eat dog world of the "market", and this is more to the point of why the professional musician must be recognized along with other service providers. They didnt ask for this, but the "new paradigm" of the industrial/capitalist age called for things like unions and the realization of the legitimacy of the musicians profession - on order to survive in the "marketplace".

So in a nutshell, as much as it may be distasteful for some to recognize pro musicians as equals in the annals of professional service, it is a necessary and just development as a result of 20th and 21st century market economics.

I cannot seem to pull this conversation out of the "club venues are the only consideration" hole, but I will keep trying.

LOL, sorry if I helped keep this off-topic by replying. Most people see the traditional route as being "play as many clubs as you can" and "develop a following" and "get discovered".

I realize your thread is really dealing with corporate events, etc.. expecting bands to play free, though traditionally these are paying situations.

It may be that playing parties and events is becoming an extension of the clubs, the idea being that playing your music for people as often as possible, results in eventual success?

There may be little to be done about it. There seems to be more artists and bands than live venues anymore. Live music venues are being replaced by Karaoke nights, among other things.

Craig yes, that was very observant and I'm glad you brought those things up. Clubs USED to be "the" vehicle for moving bands into fame, but hell - that was decades ago. I suppose part of my frustration on this thread is the propensity by so many to default to the Nightclub to make their cases. Folks, by and large it's a dead issue. Let me repeat - if it aint already obvious, the Club/Bar has DIED as a reliable career mover.

Now, to your comment about the other venues (festivals, special events, corpo events etc) replacing the club - I think there is a lot to that, and for obvious reasons. Namely, they are fee safe (you get your check, not based on "how many show up") you usually are allowed to sell your own wares (CDs, swag) during the events on top of your fee, and you get people who actually pay more attention to what you are playing than the rank and file club crowd these days, who would rather you shut up so they could play pool or watch the sporting event on the big screen tee vee.

The widening of venues is smart, and its a logical development for pro musicians given the market realities of the current day. And, a necessary component of this development is spreading the meme/idea that professional musicians can be be expected to be paid, like any other service provider.

The widening of venues is smart, and its a logical development for pro musicians given the market realities of the current day. And, a necessary component of this development is spreading the meme/idea that professional musicians can be be expected to be paid, like any other service provider.

Well, putting this out there, you have done a service. I think part of the problem, is that I doubt that most musicians are very adept at marketing themselves and understanding the business side of it. Think about all the threads asking why so many musicians on here don't even upload samples of their work, then realize that if they haven't even done that, it is unlikely they have 1) professional demos, and 2) press kits and promo packages, which are essential in advancing a professional image to those that book the events. I mean, that doesn't even get into the marketing aspects of getting your music reviewed to beef up your PK and help develop buzz and credibility, or maybe getting your stuff played at least on college radio, developing a professional website or MySpace presence, or any other myriad of strategies to get attention and buzz.

I sometimes feel like alot of artists just sit around waiting for someone to show them the way or tell them what to do. That's a shame, because you really have to work at it, and there is a wealth of knowledge online for free, as well as good books, to guide you in marketing yourself, what steps to take, the ins and outs of what to expect and how to succeed.

Oh, meant to mention before though, that your article was well written and entertaining as well. Kudos.

First .... Irminsul is correct when stating that Bars/Clubs are dead when it comes to using them as a career mover. I see complaints about the bar/club scene all over the place..... not just here in bandmix. They are slowly being nick-named as the newbie stage for new bands to earn a little guitar and mic money. When it comes to paying the bills ... I don't see musicians speak much about the bar/club plan.... but rather ..... they talk about other projects.

Some projects i've seen talked about as a possible stepping stone is sporting events (such as NHL Farm Teams).... University Parties... etc.

I do agree that if you preform .... yes ... you should be paid. If you "choose" to play for free then thats a totally different story. But... you should NOT be expected to play for FREE. "Preforming" is a service. Offering a service implies a cost.... to the person(s) offering. Those costs must be met with adequate revenue or the service becomes to the point where it can no longer bare its liabilities.

Now .... lol.. don't ask me "what" that revenue should be for the musician .... there are far too many variables to consider to even take a stab at such a universal reply.

Career Stragety

In a basic sense .... I would suggest a "new" band to start off doing the bar/club scene. This will allow for intro experience, some minor exposure, and a few bucks here and there for equipment/instruments.

One problem I have noticed is .... bands become dependant on the bars and clubs.... and this ends up being their main liability. As they tour the bars they have the stage provided, fans, ticket/door prices completed... etc. The band only needs show up, preform, and get paid (sorta speak). A band trying to leave the bar/club scene quickly realizes ... OMG ... now where will the stage and fans come from? Walking away from that neat little package the bars and clubs have nicely all setup for bands ..... is difficult for many bands to handle.

Once a band feels ready to leave the bar scene .... they should at this time take over all of the tidbit ideas that the bar took care of for them.... by creating their own stage, fan attendance, and tickets. This can be done by renting a small auditorium (perhaps at a university)... put together the tickets ... and sell them to their fans... another words .... its time the band shows they can make it on their own now.

The tickets can be sold from darn near any corner store. Slip the store owner $100 and slap the 500 tickets on her store counter for fans to buy. The store owner recieves also free advertising of the store as you advertise in the newspaper where the tickets are found..... and .... as a result... you are sending the fans to their store.... (free customers for the store)

Upon some basic marketing, and the band being worth buying tickets to see.... the tickets are sold.... revenue is made.... the preformance is completed .... all is good all the way around.

Now keep in mind .... this was very basic. I'm sure you all can read between the lines and add your own configurations.

I think Geddy Lee summed it up best when he said "Were musicians, it's really not that noble of a persuit".