General Music Chat

Music theory and/or scale theory has gotten such a bad rap with many of the current bunch of talented players? They respond with remarks such as, I play with emotion, I'm not concerned with technical abilities, I don't want to know any theory.

Did Mozart, Stephen Foster, Ira Gershwin, Frank Zappa, Alan Parsons, Jeff Lynne etc...... and the list goes on and on, not play with emotion?

I don't think theory is about technical ability, or how fast you can play a scale. There's only seven notes and theory relates these notes, no matter who wrote it or how fast it's played.

I've studied theory because it's another way to increase my musical ability and enjoyment of music.

Before Edison invented a recording device, there was only one way to precisely preserve your music for future generations, standard notation.
( OK it could be handed down thru word of mouth by not very precise)
Theory relates the notes as they've been notated, and musical geniuses have always broke these rules to create beautiful music ( as writers have done with language).

I just don't get somebody not wanting to know more, about something that is so close to there heart and soul?

Probably because you can get away with not knowing much theory when playing pop music.

I went to college for music when I was younger because 1) I wanted to do music for a living 2) I wanted to increase my musical abilities on the guitar. Learning the Circle of Fifths, major and minor thirds, the treble and bass clefs and interval training all made my playing better, but also made me realize that I didn't want to do music "for a living". I am much happier doing music for the pure joy of it.

I go back and forth on this.

I did study music in college, but cant sight read anymore LOL

But I have a basic understanding of how theory works. Serves me well to this day.

I think a lot of musicians are just too lazy to admit that they really dont know what they are doing, and dont want to take the time and make the effort to learn more.

I think Jimmy is the coolest, cause he has shown music hes done on here from Boleros to Punk, and he shines at all of it.

Right on Jimmy, I think making a living at music would be a hard way to go, but doable. I'm kinda retired now, and just play the music and study the music just for fun.

Thanks a ton John! Someday we will have jam, I wanna hear that Les Paul.

I find that it is very popular with certain ppl to be uneduacted, or "self-educated." I also find that it limits what those ppl can do, & how far their imagination can really go with limited tools at their disposal. I tend to avoid them,.

I think not knowing can be both limiting and liberating. depends on who what and what for.

I think knowing theory keeps you prepared for any opportunity, and task that may come your way. And no, I don't know squat about theory. I'm thinking about learning though.

Reading and writing music is where Mozart and the greats shined - being able to come up with a musical idea and then write it down is a huge thing, if you can do it. Theory is more of gray-area talent. It has "rules", but if you ask anyone, the rules don't dictate the music. It's more of a post-analysis of what happened. You can know plenty of music theory and still suck because you haven't practiced expressing yourself with your instrument. While learning theory, you're in constant contact with your instrument so you can associate what the theory says is happening, with the sound - at some point in your studying sheet music, you are able to "sight read", that is, hear the music as it is written on the page, without needing an instrument to get the sound. All seasoned musicians who can read music, can look at a page of music and hum what is going on without having to hear it first.

Where studying theory really comes in handy is in the analysis of other music. When you study music, you're exposed to sounds (wacky 2nd inversions of chords only nerds would want to name), and as such, might like that sound and want to use it in something you do.

That said, the theory is a good learning tool to get you in tune with music already composed, as well as how to get your instrument to make those sounds - but theory is not used on stage or during recording. Reading music, perhaps, but the analysis of what is going on in order to make musical decisions stops at the classroom door. Performance is based on memory, and sheet music as a q-card, where needed.

The art in music comes in training your body to produce the sounds you want it to produce. There are two things that make a good a musician. The ability to hear a chord progression then come up with a creative sound to go with that progression, and secondly - the ability to convey that sound through your instrument. That's where the "feel" originates.

I liken it to the analogy of typing and singing. There comes a point where typing becomes "automatic" and you can express your thoughts without having to think about what keys to type. For singing, your vocal chords are in harmony with your words - you don't have to think about inflections - they come naturally based on your emotions. In both cases, you are so accustomed to your instrument (keyboard, vocal chords) that they become an extension of your mind's ability to communicate what is going on inside you.

Learning an instrument is getting your body in tune with yet another instrument - a guitar, drums, violin, whatever.... to the point where like a type-writer or vocal chords, you're able to express yourself thru the instrument without having to hunt for the 3rd dot, 2 strings from the top, etc.- making it create the sounds your creativity has envisioned without having to worry about the details of theory or hunting for a representation of the note on your instrument.

Theory, as well as reading music, go hand in hand in terms of learning the sounds and where to find them, but I doubt many musicians/performers actually pay attention to theory when they perform. Instead, they pay attention to the phrase they know is coming, based on where they currently are.

I think that's what is meant by "play by feeling" rather than learning theory. Theory, IMO is extremely valuable for learning your instrument. I would go so far as to say that not knowing how to read and write music will limit your potential as a musician. However, just as you can likely hum a tune you hear for the very first time because you are in tune with your vocal chords and how they reflect what you can establish in your mind, that is done without theory. You should strive to be able to do the same with your instrument.

But in the same way you don't need to theory to be able to hum the theme song to something you watch on t.v., you don't need theory to be able to convey music. That's a mind-body association without the technical details slowing you down.

My 5 cents

uneduacted, or "self-educated.".

I have the tiniest niggle with this. 'uneducated' is not the same as 'self-educated'. I feel like the latter you can be proud of to the extent your education has been effective. Independence is a Good Thing. The problem I perceive is that many people who describe themselves as 'self-educated' are, in fact, 'uneducated'.

I think it's less important how you get your education than that you, in fact, are educated. Me, I'm a weird mix of learning from other people and learning on my own. It's served me well. What has never served me - or anyone I know - well is not learning.

Having said all this, I personally have known people who are proud of being uneducated about a great many things. That, I think, is really stupid. I can't really understand that point of view. To me, the learning is part of the fun.

Interesting Sir Jams, I agree with most of it. I'm a guitar player, but I play quite a bit of piano, and those wacky 2nd inversions, even first and third inversions, are a lot of times easier to play, than regular triads. Here I thought I was cool but I'm really nerd.

THeory does help with the writing and composing, but I hate to see a band with the music stands out front staring at the music or the words, when they should be entertaining me, the paying customer.

I agree aiki, "learning is part of the fun"

Not sure if this relates but I have broken down my entire music collection into two categories.

Music you listen to
Music you dance to

Each categorie invokes different emotions however, the amount of creativity, imagination and talent is still the same. Where the two diferentiate is "Music you listen to" requires tremendous amounts of skill and knowledge in music theory. IMO

aiki mcr - you are right, of course, provided the self-educated individual actually HAS educated himself. I find that, all too often, it isn't the case...that's why I put it in quotes.

I remember when Carl Perkins went from an "A" to a "C" in the song "Honey Don't" He got so much flack over that it almost wasn't recorded, as the story goes. Everyone said "You can't do that" Carl said he was going to record it like he wrote it, and that is exactly how it came out of the studio. Carl told that story himself in an interview.

I can't read a note of music or tell you what the difference in scales are. I'm not bragging about what some would gleefully refer to as my ignorance, but I only play for my own amusement so what does it matter?
It hasn't stopped me from playing with those who do know how to read and know theory.

Isn't theory something you either choose to learn or choose not to learn? I know some people that are really top drawer as far as theory goes. Some of them can't play very well, but they know their theory and can tell you in a split second what the unknown cord is that your fingers are playing.
I also know of good players that haven't studied theory. We all have something to contribute to music. Some can't play with charts, others can't play without them. But either can be good at what they do.

If your good at what you do, I suspect no one is going to come up to you after a gig and ask how much musical theory you have under your belt.
I would like to know theory, but it is pretty far down on my to do list. I'm one of those who would rather be working out a song in my "music time".

As previously stated, maybe it is all what you make of it. Just another opinion.