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#12916 by Craig Maxim
Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:23 pm
Don't be so sure about live performances.

State of the art field recorders, with near studio quality mics, small enough to fit into your pocket, are big business these days. I'm willing to bet that pirating live performances is a part of the reason.

#12917 by JJW III
Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:33 pm
Craig,

Point taken.

The point I was making is that nothing can take the place of physically being at the show and experiencing it first hand.
#12974 by fisherman bob
Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:13 am
in my opinion is that there are far too many bands trying to get into too few places. Some of these bands get so desperate that they play for next to nothing or nothing. It's a question of supply and demand. The bar owners know they can hire someone for dirt cheap because so many bands are willing to play for dirt cheap. Too bad there isn't a strong union like there was decades ago. As far as making money online, that's great but I still like playing in front of real people for a decent wage. Right now it doesn't seem possible. It's all a matter of economics. Those hiring you will get away with whatever they can because those stupid people who perform for next to nothing or nothing will continue to do it. Later...your friendly neighborhood bluesman fisherman bob (still haven't heard from my lead guitarist)

#12988 by muzickmage
Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:59 pm
Fisherman .... your comments on "supply and demand" .... I think thats about as accurate as one can get when trying to explain the offline GIGin problem. I completely agree.

and ... Union eh .... lol... now I wonder If I could actually pull that off ... lol. The funny thing is ... I am almost crazy enough to try.

#13067 by Irminsul
Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:00 pm
I am a union supporter. My branch here is the AFM local 104. It's not the answer for everyone, but they sure can apply pressure to local business to act responsibly and ethically to their musicians. Oddly enough, the local entities who complain the loudest about musicians unions are the very ones who, by their practices, make unions necessary.

Go figgur.

#13099 by muzickmage
Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:27 pm
Irminsul.... that union your speaking of ... does it accept people from sayyyy... out of state... or its surrounding area?

#13100 by Irminsul
Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:39 pm
The AFM (American Federation of Musicians) is international and organized in both the USA and Canada. The Canadian HQ is in Toronto. Check the link below for the closest Local Branch to you....

http://www.afm.org/

#13114 by muzickmage
Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:30 am
Thanks for the link.
#13120 by fisherman bob
Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:59 am
ANd if I or my band were in a union could we possibly get jobs anywhere? What are the union dues? Irminsul, does this union you belong to been beneficial to you in your musical endeavors? Are you allowed to play "non-union" gigs if you get offered any? Would it be worth it for a part-time band to join a union? Not that I generally believe in unions, but where there is an industry that is largely RIPPING OFF and TAKING ADVANTAGE of people (like musicians) then a union is a good thing. I would love to see a POWERFUL national union, that has MUSCLE and CLOUT that can help get us jobs which pays a reasonable wage. The practice of bands having to PAY bar-owners to play somewhere should become a thing of the past. Bands having to play for FREE should be a thing of the past. From what I understand years ago musician's unions were very much stronger than they are today, I guess in the big band era unions were all powerful. These friggin bar owners can KISS MY ASS. I'm starting to get really PISSED off that so many fine bands are making next to nothing. We've got talent which has been acquired through YEARS of hard work and sweat, every bit as much hard work as an electrician, auto worker, coal miner, etc. We deserve the same pay as most any other union worker. Doing a four set gig is HARD WORK and not very many people have the TALENT to do it to begin with. It's time for us to get PAID what we're worth. Your friendly PISSED OFF neighborhood bluesman fisherman bob

#13140 by muzickmage
Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:03 pm
Not that I don't disagree that bands are underpaid by bar/club owners... they very much are.... however.....

How about your share with your complaint how many people you put in the seats of the bar/club you GIGed and how much money you walked out with so we can have a clearer picture of how ripped off you were.

While GIGing ... you may be staring out at about 100 people .... and thinking .... thats my turnout.... but .... the bar/club owner knows he/she would have acquiried perhaps 40 or so of those seatings anyway without you .... so the marginal increase for entertainment is about maybe 60%.
#13155 by Irminsul
Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:56 pm
Bob you should indeed be pissed off - the lousy way that performing music professionals are often treated across this country is appalling. That was one of the main reasons I started this thread. But remember you cannot let your anger sit there and stew, because it does nothing. You have to turn it into positive action. So to start, I'm going answer some specific questions you asked about the American Federation of Musicians union:

if I or my band were in a union could we possibly get jobs anywhere?

Bands or groups don't become union members - that's done individually. You are any number of your bandmates could decide to join. I am not aware of any music venue that has said right out that union musicians "need not apply" so you could play about any gig that is available to you. However, that leads to your next question -

Are you allowed to play "non-union" gigs if you get offered any?

I think the terminology you are looking for there is, does the gig pay "union scale" which means the lowest acceptable fee per hour to member musicians. Scale can vary from time to time so it's good to check with your local on that. But once you know what it is, the union expects that you will not play for anything contracted under that amount. If you do, you could lose your membership because, as you can imagine, by playing sub-scale performances you would be totally undercutting what the union is all about which is fair pay and treatment of musicians.

What are the union dues?

Annually - $125 Quarterly - $34.00 Federation Initiation Fee (one-time): $65.00

Would it be worth it for a part-time band to join a union?

That would depend on a couple of things: One, how much you like being treated basically like an indentured house slave as a musician, and two, how often you play out. You do not have to be a "full time" musician to join the AFM. The AFM is an organization that is split into smaller branches called "Locals". I hope you don't mind but I took the liberty of doing a Google Earth search and found the AFM local nearest to you in Lexena, Kansas. It's in Kansas City MO. (Local 34-627) and here is their information -

http://www.afm.org/34-627/

Irminsul, does this union you belong to been beneficial to you in your musical endeavors?

Yes it has, in some unexpected ways. I have been an established session musician for local studios for some years now (piano, synth and celtic harp) and thanks to an AFM supplied job lead, I did one hour on a movie soundtrack - playing with the recording full orchestra - and walked out with an $1,100 check. And this is not that atypical.

This is a good place to tell you about some of the benefits of joining the AFM:

Your recorded and broadcast performances (as I illustrated above) get top dollar.

AFM members are also eligible for the AFL-CIO Union Privilege Program, which provides special loan rates, credit cards, legal services, and even pet insurance. Yeah, pet insurance.

The AFM offers an insurance plan, and get this...even a retirement pension. The AFM Employers' Pension Welfare Funds are one of the most secure plans out there. They offer normal and early retirement, death, and disability payments.


Now Bob, understand that I mostly joined out of principle. I believe that musicians should not be treated like third class citizens, and that they have a right to make a living. This crap about having to PAY club venues to play is just pure bullshit and needs to stop. But that can only happen with numbers. Enough folks who will not only refuse to play in that arrangement, but who will tell nightclub and bar owners why they won't so the word gets around and the practice stops. This is also the power of the AFM or any union for that matter - strength is in numbers.

Good luck to you and your band, you guys really deserve much better than what you are getting according to your post.

#13162 by muzickmage
Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:13 pm
Excellent post irminsul .... very imformative.

#13179 by Vocals & Bass
Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:09 am
Quote: 'Irminsul' /Now Bob, understand that I mostly joined out of principle. I believe that musicians should not be treated like third class citizens, and that they have a right to make a living. This crap about having to PAY club venues to play is just pure bullshit and needs to stop. But that can only happen with numbers. Enough folks who will not only refuse to play in that arrangement, but who will tell nightclub and bar owners why they won't so the word gets around and the practice stops. This is also the power of the AFM or any union for that matter - strength is in numbers.:(End of Quote);.... "Irminsul, Are you sure that you are not the missing", 'Jimmy Hoffa'.? Great Post Dude. [UNION]
#13185 by fisherman bob
Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:52 am
the countless hours of rehearsal, the costly equipment we own, doing a four set show and the time it takes to load equipment, haul it, set it up, play your ass off for four hours, break it down, haul it home, etc. How many hours we put into this? And then a band of four people makes $300 for the night. Taking everything into consideration we make far less than minimum wage. AND we have talent that few other people have. (Most people say we are talented anyway.) Yeah, I would say the principle of joining a union is almost a must IF you are a principled person. For the vast majority of us musicians what we do is a labor of love. Somehow we have to make it a reasonably paid labor of love. After reading Irminsul's ideas on the union I am strongly considering joining one, even though I don't play often enough. If what little money we mkae goes into a union, then maybe it will help our cause down the road. Later...

#13188 by muzickmage
Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:12 am
Ok ... wait a minute here.....

Though I am on your side when it comes to being paid more for your work ... I do however disagree with some complaints.

I hear the same thing added to the complaint each time .... I haul this ... I setup that ... etc. etc. etc.

You can't expect the fan to pay you for taking the equipment out of the garage.... or the time it takes you to put it in your van ... or the time it takes you to set it up .... or the time it takes and effort it takes you to do all of that in reverse.....

In retrospect ... you can't expect the bar/club owner to give a rats ass about all of that either.

The only thing you have fair agruement of is .... from the time you step on stage... to the time you step back off..... or another words .... the total time your entertaining .... for thats the commodity in this argruement on whether your being paid properly.

You can't say .... oh ... I desever $100 more because I carried 3 boxes of wires, setup 4 instruments, had trouble finding my shoes, and had to stop twice because of a flat tire.

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