General Music Chat

Irminsul, What are the name's of some of the better known, popular artist, That Compose & writes, Sountracks, effects, etc. for movies? I would think that you would have experience, Knowledge, In that field of art. With the level of talent you posess, As a musician. At the [keyboards], classic's, orchestra, etc. Should prove to be a good $ paying end of the music industry?

It may not have been clear in my topic article - and I should have made it so - but this is not a current crushing concern of mine, but something I see wrong in the community (of my fellow musicians). I have been seeing too many of my colleagues going with no pay merely because of an attitude that holds musicians should play for free. And it needs to stop.

In the examples I know of, the musicians were invited to play for an event, but then the coordinator turned right around and asked them to play for free. Not to flog a dead horse, but this is horrendously disrespetful and ethically wrong. If someone is good enough to be invited to play for you, they are good enough to be paid. It's really that simple. If the given musicians offers to play for free upfront, that is an entirely different matter, although I have some reservations about that on a quantuim level, which I addressed at the top of thread.

Well then the solution is simple. The instruments don't leave the house without a signed contract.

I am going to keep harping on this. If a band wishes to be profitable then this is a business first, and art second.

in my area I find playing free is not an issue, but playing really cheap is. Some of the bands were willing to play for really low fees a while back, apparently, now all the clubs want everyone to play really cheap.

Sorry folks, but if I have to load up all my equipment, drive 45 miles and setup, play 4 sets then load up and get home at 4AM, I'm not doing it for $50...I was making $100 and up a night in 1985, it's 20 years later and if you tell a club owner here you want $100 a man, they claim they can't afford it.

One band wanted me to drive 3 hours to play for $75. I tried it 4 times, made $10 one time, the others cost me. I told them forget it, I'm not in this to pay to play...At least 3 sets of strings, 6 hours drive time, load and unload a lot of equipment, get home at 6AM falling asleep at the wheel, and it costs me $10-20? NOPE...

I'll play free if it's a benefit for a good cause, (would be nice to at least get $20 gas money though) or at a friend's house and someone wants me to play a little, but if I have to pack up the gear and travel, I'm not loading up without a solid agreement for enough financial compensation to make it worthwhile.

Uploading music...

That's a hot topic these days, thanks ot the RIAA, who have been ripping off the artists they claim to be protecting for years. Why do you think the average recording artist might make $0.85 per CD that costs you $17? Between the RIAA and the record companies, the other $16 is never going to be seen by the people who actually did the work of writing and recording the songs. This is not new, the Beatles made around $0.02 per album, the most popular group in the world, when albums cost around $4. Most groups leave the studio in debt $50,000 or more, they make their money playing live, not selling CD's. In most cases, CD sales won't even pay back the record company for advances and studio time. Except for multi-million sellers like the top 5 songs...the ymight break even, might even profit from CD sales. Everyone else better be gigging...

Check out Janis Ian's article Internet Debacle Here and the Followup article listed just below it. Great article about the pros and cons of music downloading and its affect on her sales and thinking.

Yes, you're making your music available for free. The Baen Library has been doing the same thing with science fiction authors, in every case they see their sales increase immediately after uploading a book or song.

People download a song or entire album and will then order the original CD just to get the artwork and liner notes, or to play at home in the stereo as opposed to the mp3 player in the car or jogging.. They will also buy other CDs by the same artist, often just on the basis of one good song downloaded free.

The same was true years ago with cassette tapes, and the RIAA screamed then too, then they went on to make bazillions of dollars selling cassettes. Ditto for VHS video tapes. I've done tha tmyself, get a cassette from a friend...Here, check this band out...then I'll go buy the same album or a different one. Jethro Tull became one of my favorite groups as a result of a cassette someone gave me in 1971. I'd heard Aqualung and Locomotive Breath on radio, but had no idea what else they did. A free copy of Aqualung and I was hooked, I now have at least a dozen Tull albums and several CDs.

Same for several other groups. I'm seeing the same with music downloading, I'm hoping the income situation gets a lot better before long, because I know of several groups I want to look for, as a result of a song someone downloaded and played for me.

Am I going to upload my music? You bet, wouldn't pass up that kind of exposure at all. But I already know, before I start, it will pay off.

Well...guys, With the private clubs, Bars, etc. In my area. They are paying the same amount of $ they paid 20yrs. ago. I allow only one benefit a year, With the exception, Of only certain circumstances. Only time I can make good money is around Xmas & New Years. The weekend average is around $500.oo a night, starting out, in this area. And I will not go any less, And I stick to my guns on that issue. I am starting to see the younger bands are not even able to play a 4 hour show, one to two hours at the most. So they will team up with another local band just to be able to play at a club, etc. It doesnt seem to be getting better any time soon, From my point of view. You not only have to possess talent as a musician to do well in this buisness. One must also be buisness orientated, Have the ability at dealing with others, etc. Just being a talented musician does not 'hack it', In the modern world of music today. And there is nothing that says you cant make a good living at playing music? In my years of observation & dealing with other musicians, They become there 'own' worst enemy. The money is there for the taking, Its how bad you want it? 'Think pennies, You get pennies. Think dollars, You get $. And believe me! I have been through my different stage's as a 'Frustrated Musician'. And it is not a healthy frame of mind. And I understand how some employers are as 'tight as a banjo string'. But hey, Deal with it. If you dont set a standard rate of pay, For what you are worth, etc. Someone else will. This is only my personal opinion as I see it, With a little 'Rant & Rave' included, Hope no one takes offense. Oh Hell....I dont care if ya do! (Just Kidding). I am sure to be very 'blunt' on a Sunday afternoon....Peace To All.

Wegman: You absolutely hit the nail on the head regarding the necessity of working musicians to also be good businesspeople. I just add one exception on the "instruments dont leave the house without a contract": If you're going out to jam with friends, or play at a charity event you have selected. Nothing wrong with playing for free there.

Paleopete: Man, I think you really have it all together. And regarding especially your comments on uploaded MP3s, I can tell you I stopped trying to "sell" those long ago. I decide what mp3s of mine to post as promos because I know they are going to ripped off if someone takes a liking to them; but that often that will lead to an inquiry for albums they can buy. My membership in ASCAP has also given me daily peace of mind about whether or not my music is being stolen and used without my knowledge for profit (ASCAP has "ears" out for their members all over the nation).

I think this is a good place to reiterate that I firmly believe a working musician deserves to earn a living. Not a right to be rich, per se, but at least earn a living by culling an honorable wage or fee for their efforts.

Wegman: You absolutely hit the nail on the head regarding the necessity of working musicians to also be good businesspeople. I just add one exception on the "instruments dont leave the house without a contract": If you're going out to jam with friends, or play at a charity event you have selected. Nothing wrong with playing for free there.

Well of course, but if it's a paid gig everything should be writing. Actually even for a free event I would probably still have a some kind contract so the band isn't held liable for anything.

Well Paleopete .... I will have to disagree with you on the "downloading music will aid to increase sales" .... and if you got that idea from that particular article you read .... then you were badly misinformed.

You all may be very good at making music .... but when it comes to career management and CD Productions and Sales ... thats my neck of the woods.

Uploading music on websites "will" act to decrease your sales overall. Now keep in mind .... there will always be exceptions .. such as ... someone will always seem to buy your music regardless of how poorly your marketing skills are... but as a whole ... your costing yourself in lost income.

I've witnessed it claimed over the past few years that music pirating has destroyed the Music Industry in the area of CD Production.... and that there is no way you could possibly stop music pirating regardless of how strict or bold the law becomes. It was suggested that there would always be at least one hacker that could somehow get a song through the cracks to waiting hands hoping to save a few bucks at the CD Store.

Well ..... I am witnessing a new era. For when it comes to music piraters .... they are quickly going out of business. Perhaps the claims of a few years ago were true .... maybe they can't be stopped .... but .... what we didn't think about was ... just how long would they be important?

There isn't much of a need for a "FREE downloadable music" website anymore. So the existance of music pirating has lost some of its dominance over the music industry. Today... if we want a song ... we just go to MySpace, Bebo, YouTube, or many other music sites. Music Artist are now uploading their music for everyone to listen to for free. Why download a song from a Pirating Site ... have it take up space on your hard drive ... when that song has been uploaded to a Website's server for you (by the artist him/herself) to listen to 24/7..... and for FREE. So in the case of music pirating .... you could say that it wasn't a case of decreasing supply and demand of the activity but rather .... a process of substitution.


However ... before we bathe in the glory of quickly dying music download sites within our brand new internet music era ... we must remember ... there can't be a postive without a negative. The old era was more so controled by the piraters of music stealing from the industry. Now, in our new era ... the artists have taken on the task of stealing from themselves instead. When visiting the music sites such as Myspace and Bebo ... you will notice that artists are quick to upload their music tracks hoping to boast their amazing talent.... and acquire some encouraging fans. Well .... this is being accomplished for many.

But..... the real negative comes into play when it comes time for the artist to begin selling their music. Now first ... keep in mind that many artists on these such sites are trying to sell the very songs they currently have uploaded ... believing that people will decide that being able to listen to those particular songs 24/7 100% FREE will encourage them to pay money for the opportunity of having them on a CD in their home.

Second ... measure the incentive to pay for a song when there are literally thousands of others at your disposal ... again .... 100% FREE. You may want 2 scoops of ice-cream but that is going to cost you $3. However .... if you are willing to settle for 1 scoop ... you can have it for FREE. You may be losing a scoop ... but you still have ice-cream. So in retrospect ... you may be losing the song you don't pay for .... but you still have a seemingly endless list of FREE songs at your beck and call.... you still have your music.

This is placing a high strain on today's artists. They must produce a song that is .... without question ... a hit song. They must have people pretty much fall off their chairs in amazement at the hearing of this song .... or risk not achieving any sales. For why should a fan pay to own a song when there are literally thousands of songs at their disposal 24/7 absolutely FREE. Then ... to finally sell the song ... it ends up in the hands of those pesty piraters .... and a month later ... thousands of fans in 6 different countries are now listening to that very song for free ..... from their hard drive.

With these two eras creating back-to-back injury to the music industry the incentive for any fan to purchase any piece of music is diminishing. Music today is too easily acquired for free for anyone to seriously consider paying for it. In a sense ... you could compare music to water. Some of it is bottled water (and sold) and some of it is tap water (and is FREE). Bottled water will only maintain its popularity for so long.

Other than a small group of supporters hoping to send their sediments to a particular artist ... I predict music sales to drop overwhelmingly over the next 2-3 years.

Do you recall the agruement about Bandmix charging $10 for "emailing" other members? What was some of the feedback on that? If you remember right.... it was ..... its a FREE service ... why should we have to pay for it when its being offered by the rest of the internet for FREE.

There you go ... you just saw the future of music sales.

Well Paleopete .... I will have to disagree with you on the "downloading music will aid to increase sales" .... and if you got that idea from that particular article you read .... then you were badly misinformed.

You all may be very good at making music .... but when it comes to career management and CD Productions and Sales ... thats my neck of the woods.

Uploading music on websites "will" act to decrease your sales overall. Now keep in mind .... there will always be exceptions .. such as ... someone will always seem to buy your music regardless of how poorly your marketing skills are... but as a whole ... your costing yourself in lost income.

I've witnessed it claimed over the past few years that music pirating has destroyed the Music Industry in the area of CD Production.... and that there is no way you could possibly stop music pirating regardless of how strict or bold the law becomes. It was suggested that there would always be at least one hacker that could somehow get a song through the cracks to waiting hands hoping to save a few bucks at the CD Store.

Well ..... I am witnessing a new era. For when it comes to music piraters .... they are quickly going out of business. Perhaps the claims of a few years ago were true .... maybe they can't be stopped .... but .... what we didn't think about was ... just how long would they be important?

There isn't much of a need for a "FREE downloadable music" website anymore. So the existance of music pirating has lost some of its dominance over the music industry. Today... if we want a song ... we just go to MySpace, Bebo, YouTube, or many other music sites. Music Artist are now uploading their music for everyone to listen to for free. Why download a song from a Pirating Site ... have it take up space on your hard drive ... when that song has been uploaded to a Website's server for you (by the artist him/herself) to listen to 24/7..... and for FREE. So in the case of music pirating .... you could say that it wasn't a case of decreasing supply and demand of the activity but rather .... a process of substitution.


However ... before we bathe in the glory of quickly dying music download sites within our brand new internet music era ... we must remember ... there can't be a postive without a negative. The old era was more so controled by the piraters of music stealing from the industry. Now, in our new era ... the artists have taken on the task of stealing from themselves instead. When visiting the music sites such as Myspace and Bebo ... you will notice that artists are quick to upload their music tracks hoping to boast their amazing talent.... and acquire some encouraging fans. Well .... this is being accomplished for many.

But..... the real negative comes into play when it comes time for the artist to begin selling their music. Now first ... keep in mind that many artists on these such sites are trying to sell the very songs they currently have uploaded ... believing that people will decide that being able to listen to those particular songs 24/7 100% FREE will encourage them to pay money for the opportunity of having them on a CD in their home.

Second ... measure the incentive to pay for a song when there are literally thousands of others at your disposal ... again .... 100% FREE. You may want 2 scoops of ice-cream but that is going to cost you $3. However .... if you are willing to settle for 1 scoop ... you can have it for FREE. You may be losing a scoop ... but you still have ice-cream. So in retrospect ... you may be losing the song you don't pay for .... but you still have a seemingly endless list of FREE songs at your beck and call.... you still have your music.

This is placing a high strain on today's artists. They must produce a song that is .... without question ... a hit song. They must have people pretty much fall off their chairs in amazement at the hearing of this song .... or risk not achieving any sales. For why should a fan pay to own a song when there are literally thousands of songs at their disposal 24/7 absolutely FREE. Then ... to finally sell the song ... it ends up in the hands of those pesty piraters .... and a month later ... thousands of fans in 6 different countries are now listening to that very song for free ..... from their hard drive.

With these two eras creating back-to-back injury to the music industry the incentive for any fan to purchase any piece of music is diminishing. Music today is too easily acquired for free for anyone to seriously consider paying for it. In a sense ... you could compare music to water. Some of it is bottled water (and sold) and some of it is tap water (and is FREE). Bottled water will only maintain its popularity for so long.

Other than a small group of supporters hoping to send their sediments to a particular artist ... I predict music sales to drop overwhelmingly over the next 2-3 years.

Do you recall the agruement about Bandmix charging $10 for "emailing" other members? What was some of the feedback on that? If you remember right.... it was ..... its a FREE service ... why should we have to pay for it when its being offered by the rest of the internet for FREE.

There you go ... you just saw the future of music sales.

And this leads back to the live performance. That can't be streamed or downloaded.

I am of the opinion, and perhaps a very wrong opinion, that the live performance seperates the wheat from the chaf. Really great bands, are really great live. Some of them, are lifetime memory experiences. The live performance is the medium in which the fan makes a connection with the artist. If this connection is strong enough, the fan wants to support the band, and actually own a piece of them. So they buy the shirts, the tour books and the albums.

I will speak for myself. There are bands I really never took very serious or really was interested in. Then I would get invited to see them in concert, and I was totally impressed. Guess what? Out to the record store to buy the albums.

I also believe the digital media format has harmed artists. Back in the day you would by the album, and it would have the cool artwork, and liner notes and what. Again, you got to make that connection and feel like you owned a piece of the band. You had something tangible. The digital format is so disposable, and thus really is valueless. Why should I pay for something I can permanently delete if I need more hard drive space?

I really think this is the problem, along with mediocre cookie cutter content put out by the record companies.

lol wegman ... now did ya have to quote alllllllllllllll of the message lol.

However ..... I agree with you on the live giging part. Offline ... I can see a chance still at earning a buck ..... even if that buck is small compared to what your expecting. I can also see some CD sales lingering around for offline gigers as well. There's still some T-Shirts and Autographed pictures being marketed by some bands..... so that part is good.

The problem is the online status ... people need to really smarten up.

Oh ... and don't be so sure on the "live performances can't be streamed or downloaded" thing .... as I am currently working on "Live GiG Feeds to internet fans".

Its not as difficult as you would think. Hey lol maybe we won't need the bars for much longer ... the fan seating just may soon be on a Website ... instead of a bar room .... and the Artists in a nicely docorated basement of their own home.

Well .... I guess time will tell.

Yea, sorry guy. Probably didn't need to quote the whole thing eh?

There has got to be money made in touring. I live in the middle of nowhere and we have a lot of decent acts come through to play the casinos. In fact Sammy Hagar is playing next week. If there was no money in it I don't see why these acts would do it or why there management would allow it.

Exactly ..... I think as long as there are Bars/Clubs .... there will be live gigs ..... what the pay will be for the bands ..... well thats another story.

I don't think there is much of a substitution for live entertainment. Even the Live GiG feeds (I mentioned above) would be a considerable and costly downgrade for Bar/Club owners.

Overall.... I would reason that the Bar/Club owners can't afford to lose live entertainment. The bands themselves create alot of the Clubs cliental.

Hey VB .... get your own Avatar .. lol.. the little red x is mine ... lol.

The very definition of being a professional is that you make your livlihood from it. I gave up on being a professional musician many years ago, and now have a lot more fun as an amateur. It's still possible to make money as an amateur; most of the clubs in Detroit pay based on your draw. But if you can get a signed contract that's always preferred.

Funny you mention the pay by draw. Back when I was playing in Chicago you got a percentage of the door, and you worked that out with the club owner. That arrangement is win win for everyone.

You would have your guy at the door with a counter and the club would have their guy at the door with a counter and at the end of the night they would compare the counts and then you would get your 50 or 75% or whatever of the take you worked out.

It was win win because if you didn't draw that night, the club owner wasn't paying out of his pocket taking the loss, and it was good for the band because the bigger the draw the more you made.