General Music Chat

It really bothers me that we all are so divided over the semantics of what we want our government to be.
And it seems to go to the core of how we were brought up as to which way we lean in our political thinking.
I see it as liberals are more Utopian in their visions, they want everybody taken care of. The playing field is not even and some need help more that others
And Conservatives want to be left alone at all costs, The field is even, persist or perish.

Personally I believe one thing above all others affects our lives and determines how our life will be...And that's Pure Dumb Luck.
Because it's fine to say pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make something of yourself but if you're born dumb, the wrong color, in the wrong situation, with a weak mind...etc..etc...you're screwed
And yes I know all these things can be overcome but if you're not lucky enough to have the resources to overcome them...you're screwed. Although I do believe in personal responsibility and making the most of what you were given.

And conversely, if everything goes your way you win, good for you, but because you were lucky enough to have brains, the right skin color, all your faculties, and the right environment do you owe society anything for your good fortune? It's been put in our heads that no, tough luck, I win.
This is what bothers me.

I'd really like to know how the rest of you see it, Because I really have a hard time reconciling how people justify the things they do. I know that there are a lot of people here that believe differently than I do and I'd really like to have a better understanding of how they got to where they are in their thinking.

This doesn't need to be a scream fest here. I believe that we can discuss this in the spirit of understanding in a civil manner and not of who's right and who's wrong.

I don't think most people can be easily classified as either liberal or conservative, even if they label themselves that way. I personally think think that a person should have the right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Does that make me liberal or conservative? Because as I understand it conservatives want less government, yet they are the ones that try to restrict rights to abortion, etc. I believe everyone should have basic necessities such as proper food and health care, yet I also believe a person should work if they're able. Don't let Fox News or MSNBC define what you are or believe; think for yourself.

Good Points....

I personally believe that men of good intent can govern themselves equitably.
It will never be perfect because men are not.
With the appropriate checks and balances in place and eternal vigilance.
Some semblance of order can be maintained.
Too much power to any one group is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think most people can be easily classified as either liberal or conservative, even if they label themselves that way. I personally think think that a person should have the right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Does that make me liberal or conservative? Because as I understand it conservatives want less government, yet they are the ones that try to restrict rights to abortion, etc. I believe everyone should have basic necessities such as proper food and health care, yet I also believe a person should work if they're able. Don't let Fox News or MSNBC define what you are or believe; think for yourself.

A little semantic dissonance here: those who label themselves "Conservatives" and fight against abortion and gay marriage and all the other social issues are not "conservative" at all, in the political sense of the word. It drives me nuts every time someone like Huckabee calls themselves a "true conservative", when they're really not. Those neo-cons keep giving us conservatives a bad name.

People can and do argue about issues and some issues will never be settled one way or the other. Take abortion for example. If you believe that destroying a fetus is akin to murder, in other words a fetus has the same rights as a human being, then it's going to be impossible to persuade you that abortion should be legal. The abortion issue is an unwinnable argument. Just as capital punishment is an unwinnable argument. I would dearly like to see individual states vote on issues in public referendums. Every four years when we vote for our governors we should be able to vote whether to allow abortions in our states the next four years. Or have capital punishment the next four years or right to carry the next four years or legalize marijuana the next four years, etc. Whatever is decided we go along with the decision and then the next four years we vote on it again. No more arguing. Each state has its own laws on certain hot-button issues. I also believe that each state should decide on government run healthcare or not. I never understood why the federal government should mandate healthcare for everybody. It would have been much better and easier if the federal government went into the healthcare business SEPARATE FROM TAXING EVERYBODY. Just as you have a choice to ship a package with UPS or Federal Express or the United States Postal Service, you could choose a United States Healthcare that is run AS A BUSINESS and is NOT supported by taxes but is AN ELECTIVE of each individual to join or not. The federal government could have its own doctors, own hoispitals, own clinics that you can utilize IF YOU PAY FOR IT just as you would your own private health insurance. Think of the cost savings and a federal healthcare system would create a legitimate competitor to private insurance. Prices would most certainly fall and the competition would increase the quality of healthcare. When a free market is maintained and enhanced it benefits everybody. A monopoly which the current healthcare system is likely to produce will erode quality. There is going to be no incentive to increase quality if YOU HAVE NO CHOICE and doctors and hospitals HAVE NO CHOICES. I believe in a healthy dose of regulation and a very healthy dose of increased free market competition. The federal government CAN become an instrument of enhancing our lives IF it is run just as any business is run. We need to give the states more freedom in the way they want to run THEIR business. We need to have a federal government that is geared toward QUALITY BUSINESS and maintain and increase the protection of American citizens. Obama promised transparency when he was running for President. There is NO transparency that I'm aware of. I can't go to a source that shows TO THE PENNY what Stimulus monies have been spent on what and what jobs have been produced. The federal government should be completely transparent as to the monies it spends, updated weekly or monthly in a format that is easily understood. I want our government 100% accountable. I want to know what the hell it is doing financially at all times. I want to know which legislators have been involved in which financial deals so that those that are on shaky ground can be summarily voted out of office. It isn't a matter of being Liberal or Conservative for me. It is a matter of being practical for me. Some of the things I want might be construed as liberal, some conservative. I want accountability. I want financial responsibility. I want MORE state's rights and freedoms. I want healthy regulation. I want our borders protected to the maximum. I want illegal immigrants OUT if they are being paid under the table and their employers PUT IN JAIL. I want a list of all corporations who have moved any or all of their operations overseas so I CAN BOYCOTT their products. I don't want any more B.S. that hurts Americans and increase unemployment. This country needs to operate for its citizens. States need to have the freedom to operate in favor of its citizens. Our votes need to count for something...US.

The problem in the United States is that it needs to move more toward a democracy and move away from being a republic.
More popular votes need to be held.
The representatives that are supposed to vote along the interests of those who have elected them, for the most part, don't.

It really bothers me that we all are so divided over the semantics of what we want our government to be.
And it seems to go to the core of how we were brought up as to which way we lean in our political thinking.
I see it as liberals are more Utopian in their visions, they want everybody taken care of. The playing field is not even and some need help more that others
And Conservatives want to be left alone at all costs, The field is even, persist or perish.

Personally I believe one thing above all others affects our lives and determines how our life will be...And that's Pure Dumb Luck.
Because it's fine to say pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make something of yourself but if you're born dumb, the wrong color, in the wrong situation, with a weak mind...etc..etc...you're screwed
And yes I know all these things can be overcome but if you're not lucky enough to have the resources to overcome them...you're screwed. Although I do believe in personal responsibility and making the most of what you were given.

And conversely, if everything goes your way you win, good for you, but because you were lucky enough to have brains, the right skin color, all your faculties, and the right environment do you owe society anything for your good fortune? It's been put in our heads that no, tough luck, I win.
This is what bothers me.

I'd really like to know how the rest of you see it, Because I really have a hard time reconciling how people justify the things they do. I know that there are a lot of people here that believe differently than I do and I'd really like to have a better understanding of how they got to where they are in their thinking.

This doesn't need to be a scream fest here. I believe that we can discuss this in the spirit of understanding in a civil manner and not of who's right and who's wrong.

Are we just talking about economics or other political factors?

I get a lot of people on my YouTube channel accusing me of being a communist because I critique capitalism. But, ANY system that concentrates power into too few hands ends in disaster. I've proposed something akin to Trekkonomics; abolish money, automate everything, let people work for enjoyment or self-improvement, everything is free. Parecon is something that democratizes economics. But, I'm pretty sure it still leaves the system of money in place. Get rid of that and it removes many levers of power that can no longer be abused.

I get a lot of people on my YouTube channel accusing me of being a communist because I critique capitalism. But, ANY system that concentrates power into too few hands ends in disaster. I've proposed something akin to Trekkonomics; abolish money, automate everything, let people work for enjoyment or self-improvement, everything is free. Parecon is something that democratizes economics. But, I'm pretty sure it still leaves the system of money in place. Get rid of that and it removes many levers of power that can no longer be abused.

Wow....neat idea if it would work.. I'll have to think about that one. So if everything was free what's to stop people from laying about eating bon bons all day? And who would do the hard or disgusting work? Just everyone take turns? And how do you educate people to accept this?

Live long and Prosper.....

I get a lot of people on my YouTube channel accusing me of being a communist because I critique capitalism. But, ANY system that concentrates power into too few hands ends in disaster. I've proposed something akin to Trekkonomics; abolish money, automate everything, let people work for enjoyment or self-improvement, everything is free. Parecon is something that democratizes economics. But, I'm pretty sure it still leaves the system of money in place. Get rid of that and it removes many levers of power that can no longer be abused.

Wow....neat idea if it would work.. I'll have to think about that one. So if everything was free what's to stop people from laying about eating bon bons all day? And who would do the hard or disgusting work? Just everyone take turns? And how do you educate people to accept this?

Live long and Prosper.....

So if everything was free what's to stop people from laying about eating bon bons all day? First, boredom. Second, pride. Oh sure, there will always be folks who wanna just veg-out in the front of the TV. But, believe me. After awhile, you get pretty sick of it and are climbing the walls.

And who would do the hard or disgusting work? Robots. What robots can't do can be re-engineered to be made easier.

Just everyone take turns? Parecon mostly operates on this idea. I'm not convinced. It depends on which organization you "work" for, I suppose. There are already companies which are employee-owned and managed. They do all right. They vote on company decisions.

And how do you educate people to accept this? By example, I guess. The best way to show something works is to make it work. There are small eco-villages operated in a kind of communal manner. Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage in Missouri is one I know of. Although, they have resorted to producing a localized currency which is earned by time and effort and is not transferrable. Not what I had in mind.

But, if people want something badly enough they can get it.

The best thing I've ever heard about this is from Gene Roddenberry's final interview before he died,

"I think technology will save us. And I think our own goodness will save us, basic human decency."..."Money is a terrible thing. Why do people work at jobs in Star Trek? Why does someone become a baker? Because the family is going to starve to death? No. People become bakers because certain people love the smell of things baking and certain people take pride--we all have a little pride--in something. 'Let me give this to you because it's delicious and you will love it, and I made it, and this is my recipe'. All things will be taken care of."~~Gene Roddenberry (creator of "Star Trek") "The Last Conversation"

I've mullled over this for a few days and I'll put in my two dollars cuz this is long.

I have no party affiliations, I vote whichever way I feel the issue should be voted on. I like to weigh issues side by side and look at the good and bad of them.

I've never liked money, it is a system that is set up to play favorites, a system that incites greed, and a system that sets men up to fail. The credit system, as much as it pushes people to be responsible, it's still sets up people to fail, especially if they fall on hard times, get sick or just plain tough luck, you will be thrown under the bus.

After having lived outside the country for a number of years, I find Americans very spoiled. They bitch about taxes yet they pay less taxes than Europe, Australia and Canada. We get write-offs and credits the other countries don't get. Yeah, that's why Europeans think we're a bunch of whiners. They have a soclized healthcare in place, I lived under it, I paid for it, and I liked the fact that if I got sick, I didn't have to worry about if my HMO would cover it or that they'd let me die like here in the US. I was even able to have a homopathic doctor which was COVERED under my HMO. You'd get laughed at here if I asked for a naturalpath or I'd pay through the nose. I liked the fact that I got six weeks vacation working at a bookstore. I like the fact that a woman could get paid leave if she wanted to stay home with her baby, not "fired" because her company made up a lie that she "abandoned" her job like here in the US. They pay a lot of taxes for this and to me, it's worth it. It's not perfect and they pay a lot of taxes, so much it would make the common man here cringe. But I liked that they had a government healthcare. We should have always had it in place. I was lucky when I was younger because my dad was a Teamster, you know, they may have been mafia but at least I got dental care and I was able to go to summer camp without my parents taking out a mortgage on the house. We should have dental. I need about $2000 worth a work in my mouth and I'm just gonna let the f**k fall out and get some $200 dentures which is what my lame ass insurance I pay $69 bucks a month for covers. And that's a PPO through my job! WTF! I should be covered for this sh*t. I go to the dentist and the finance manager gives me paperwork like I'm buying a f**k car!

Yesterday, a man's home was allowed to burn down by firefighters because he didn't pay the $75 fee imposed by the county. This is the system the teabaggers want. They want everyone accountable, every man for himself, well take a good look because what money you sill save in taxes, you will be paying a fee to your local police, your fire department and other services. Those who don't pay, f**k you! Yeah, this is accountability at it's best. Burn baby burn.

People have a sh*t fit because they're afraid of being communist when we're already pretty much a communist country. Ever lived in a gated community with a homeowner's association? That's communism. I know, I used to write the contracts. I know some who could tell you how you can use your rooms and what color you could paint your walls. How's that after spending $200K for your condo? We're doing time, because free enterprise feeds your brain all day long on how to part you from your money. The average American is cash poor because they're so busy trying to keep up with the Joneses. Very few people have savings accounts these days, mainly because they're locked up in credit card debt and 2nd mortgages on their homes. If they lose their jobs, oops! Most of our large companies now have moved many of their jobs overseas to India and China. Call customer service of any big company, you'll be speaking to Apu.

Meanwhile, there are Americans dying right now because they can't afford their medications, they're working but they can't afford insurance, so they opt out. My friend died of cancer last year and I called everywhere trying to find her a program which would help her with her medical bills. She makes too much money. When I was on disability, I had no health insurance because even on disability, I made too much money, so I just hoped we wouldn't get sick. I had to take my kids to the free clinic for their immunizations. Yeah I did, because I've been in the workforce for over 20 something years, and I've paid motherfuckin' taxes from being in the workforce. That was ridiculous.

Illegal immigrants, sorry folks, they aren't going anywhere. You want to boycott the businesses, then you stop going to every fast food restaurant in America (who do you think works at the meat packing plants?), stop buying produce at pretty much every grocery store in America (who picks your veggies and your fruit?), stop buying your clothes at Walmart (why do you think their clothes are so cheap? It ain't all from China, y'know). Everything and I mean most EVERYTHING is due to immigrants here, so get over it. Think America isn't gonna pay for all that bulldozing they did a couple of hundred years ago? Ha ha, karma's a bitch. Europe is dealing with them. All that crusading in the new world comes at a price folks. Sorry to sound so harsh, but that's the reality. Also, who do you think is over there in Iraq and Afghanistan? The children of illegal immigrants count up for 1 in every 4 soldiers. If they go, they can take their kids with them and then we'll have a very sick looking military. Then we'll be learning Chinese.

What I want is for people to get a f**k clue. What's the plan? I've been asking this over and over and no one has one. Why? What does accountability mean? Huh? There have been poor people since time began, immigrants since Jesus's time, you step over them long enough in the street, they will eventually attack you and be a public menace. So that means, you'll just have to get off your stingy asses and do something for someone less fortunate, that doesn't have the integrity and balls you have. Maybe some worthwhile incentives would be to put them to work in exchange for housing and food, some social incentives would keep people from crowding up the jails. Get these sorry ass rich kids off drugs so that the drug wars will stop, the very ones that our wonderful government had their fingers in the pot with, yeah, say no, kids!

There must be a plan, not just for folks who are working. There will have to be some taxes. There has to be a modification or something of this mess called our current health care. I have Kaiser right now, but if I lose my job, I'm screwed. I can't get on welfare.

People think welfare is such a breeze. Here's what I would have to do to get on welfare. I'd have to let go of my house and take a loss because the money would go to pay the agent and the loan. I will have to sell my other car and live with just one car. I will have to give them access to my bank accounts and get rid of my savings account. They will monitor all money that comes through my bank account. I have to show them my taxes every year. If I made too much, oops, I get cut off. I will have to go to school or take some shitty job that they give me which would be far below my skill level. I know this because I have a musician friend on it. Lucky, he's a single dad taking care of his son, but they monitor pretty much every aspect of his life. He works where they tell him to work. Most doctors now no longer take welfare medical, so you will be in some down-trodden area getting just basic medical care. You won't be getting private rooms at the hospital at that cool hospital you like. You will probably be at one of those hospitals where you'll wait 8 hours just to see someone. Those days are over. Welfare is a lot of work and you'll have little freedom. Anyone driving cadillacs on welfare is selling drugs on the side. That money isn't coming from cheating the system anymore. There are people who sell their foodstamps and EBT cards, but honestly, you don't get enough money for it to even brag about. Not here in California where the cost of living is extremely high. What little they get, it isn't enough to get mad about it. I know places where you can shop and look like a million dollars for cheap.

There has to be a government because somebody has to keep this sh*t in line. It just needs to be cleaned up. This accountability sh*t is lame. There are too many thoughtless and inconsiderate, me, me, my, my, my people out there and most of them can be found in gated communities. They're idea of paying no tax is so they can have enough to get those designer shoes they wanted or to take their family to Disney World then brag about it to their neighbors who they know can't afford to go. Yeah, that's what American countability will turn into. The staunch Republicans, I don't want to do sh*t for anybody but myself, me and my.

And what is my motivation in all this? I want to see a community. I like helping people. No, I don't throw my money at charities because many of them are full of sh*t. But I know me and my friends like the bartering system. My single dad friend, his son and my daughter are the best of friends. I let him bring his kid over any time he wants, but then when I need a favor, he watches my dogs for me. I give them money to go to take the kids to the movie while I work on my book. Every Thanksgiving I cook and open my home up to whoever wants to come over. Hubs and I consider it a blessing to have a stranger at your table for thanksgiving, people who have nowhere to go. I'm a hard ass, I know, but I'd like to see more love between people. There is none. People are so afraid of being taken advantage of that they've closed themselves off to everybody. They don't want a system that will help everybody because they're too busy thinking about those who would get a free ride off of it.

I'd like to see a government that behaves like the Chief or Elders of a tribe, that care only about the good of their people, not profit or personal power. I'm so far in the future, that I'm beyond a monetary system like in Star Trek. Every member of the community has their role and they're proud of performing that role, not trying to get out from doing it. But then what I say sounds too much like communism. It's a shame because the indigenous people have worked under it for years.

What I think isn't perfect, but it's simply what I think.

Chaeya

What I think isn't perfect, but it's simply what I think.

Well that’s pretty much what I was talking about.
The monetary system in Star Trek, with “credits” and such, only applies to trade with non-Federation planets. Everything’s free on Earth and (I think) most parts of the Federation.

I've proposed something akin to Trekkonomics; abolish money, automate everything, let people work for enjoyment or self-improvement, everything is free. Parecon is something that democratizes economics. But, I'm pretty sure it still leaves the system of money in place. Get rid of that and it removes many levers of power that can no longer be abused.[/size]

I don't know. Take away money and you take away incentive. It has never worked. Not in China, Cuba, Russia or anywhere else. Money is not the problem, greed is the problem and every human has it. You cannot govern-out greed that is inherent in our DNA. Finding a way to yoke inherent greed to benefit society would be a worthy plan. Use incentive. Winston Churchill said it best: "The vice of Capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The vice of Socialism is the equal sharing of misery."

I have been blessed beyond measure as have my kids. We all have received far more than we deserve. We give generously in both time and money to those less fortunate but I doubt the score will ever be even.

My father started with nothing. He was born part white, part native american to a Texas hog farmer who owned nothing during the dust bowl years. His father died when he was 15 and was essentially on his own at that point. He joined the Navy and was put on a ship shoveling coal in the boiler room due to lack of skills. He figured out real quick that the boiler room was hell on earth but by studying during his time off he could move out of there and into more pleasant surroundings (incentive). He learned refrigeration systems and moved up in rank quickly but never stopped learning.

After his Navy stint he used veteran benefits to continue his education receiving a degree in engineering from Northrop. He worked in the aerospace industry designing rocket motors for Titan launch vehicles and jet engine nacelles. After 17 years as an engineer he started his own business and taught his sons a trade that I still work in today. The only hand up he ever got was his parents taught him how to read and veteran benefits to subsidize his college tuition. He just wanted it more than others around him and was willing to make personal sacrifices to get there.

He said all along that he was no brighter or more skilled than any of those other guys shoveling coal, he just wanted it more than they did. He had incentive. Education and determination will open many doors but not everyone is willing to make the sacrifices needed to better their lot. Our universities are currently full to bursting with asian students looking to better their lot. They are no brighter or more skilled than other white, black, red or brown americans. They just want it more. They will be our future doctors, engineers, and business owners, and they will live in large homes and drive nice cars in nice areas because they have incentive.

Stepping off soap box now...

I agree there has to be some "incentive." But it doesn't have to be with money.

If you look at the tribal system. The incentive is to be "respected" in the tribe. To be a great warrior, the skilled artisan and so on. The tribe would come and help you build your home, everyone participated, but once it was built, everyone was responsible for their own. If you didn't work, you didn't eat. If you didn't learn to fight, you couldn't hunt, so you could eat. If you didn't learn to make your own clothes, you froze to death. It's considered dishonorable to ask for something you didn't earn.

My dad sounds a lot like your dad. My dad was black, but he had a strong work ethic. When he came back from the Korean War, he apprenticed with a furniture refinisher and learned his trade. By the time I was a kid, my dad was well respected and we lived all right. He worked two jobs just so my mom could stay home with me and we could go on trips and vacations. I never remember my dad ever being out of work. He's 78 and people still call him to do stuff and he has a hard time convincing them he's retired. I've always been proud of my dad because I have his same work ethic. I've always worked and even when I wasn't in this country, I would do odd jobs in exchange for a place to stay.

And the problem isn't just greed. The problem is with people wanting to feel better than the next guy. I remember one lady told me she spent $400 on a purse because she said that people treated her better. WTF? I have a wallet I paid $2 for on clearance at Kohl's and it's falling apart and it's horrible looking, but I just don't feel like getting a new one yet. I'll buy one when I'm good and ready. I work in Newport "Check Out All Our Money" Beach and people treat me just fine with my $2 wallet, they just want me to pay for what I'm getting. I wear clothes from thrift stores and I live in a trailer park. If people don't like it they can kiss my butt. If there's something I want at Saks or Nordstroms, I go and buy because I want, not because I want to impress people. I know who I am, I don't need to wear expensive clothes to prove it. I work with people who brag all day long about what they have, what they bought, where they've been, but yet all they've been doing is working, I have far more interesting stories to tell than they do with nothing to show for it, yet I feel just as rich.

Self Esteem - Get one, it comes from experience, not money.

Chaeya

Slaves under a whip have plenty of incentive. It doesn’t mean slavery is a good idea.
A lot of greed is born from fear. Fear of homelessness, starvation, poor medical care, etc. Economics is mostly psychological, not material. Change attitudes and you change the economy. A more enlightened society changes its habits, not overnight, but generationally.
Your father had security in the Navy. They would look out for him. He could focus his attention on other things besides putting food on the table. His incentive wasn’t about making more money. He wanted to improve himself and change his environment. He had the opportunity and took it. A lot of people never get the opportunity. A lot of people are just f**k. Dumb luck as well as personal choice makes a difference in our lives. They aren’t exclusive to each other, just different factors.
Gene Roddenberry was a fighter pilot in WW2. He saw a lot of terrible things. So, when he said he has faith in the future of humanity and how it’ll play out I gotta give him some credit for being right so far.