General Music Chat

When religion is used as an excuse to promote hatred, it bothers me, whether the source be christian or moslem or what religion it may be.

I truly believe that there was supposed to be a HUGE change, once Jesus came on the scene, that most christians are failing to see. But I'm certainly no expert on the subject.

The hatred, the exclusions, the lack of understanding, the zero tolerance for so much in this world - these are the things that drove me from the religion.

And you're quite right, jimmy, in that we ARE speaking of legal issues, not religious ones. Either it is right & legal to deny ppl rights based on sexual orientation or it is not. By the words of our Constitution, by the spirit of our Declaration of Independence, & by that which I was taught about this country, I don't think it is, but, as I said - I'm no legal expert.

SG, you said "This is not a fight about equality, they already have that."

I'm sure that they would disagree with you, as I do. When one of the significant others dies, for example, the gov't can take their possessions, rather than having that surviving significant other have them, for example. When one of them has lived the traditional role of the housewife, he or she may lose everything when the wage-earner of the relationship dies, & be left with no work history to earn a decent wage, or be too old to work, & have no SSI in their own name.

There are serious questions about our compassion as a nation, when we can allow this to happen, while saying things like, "Well, they deserved it, for being such sinners." These ppl are contributing members of our society, in every walk of our lives, whether you know it or not. They spend as much or more on taxes than others do. They have earned their rights, though they are denied them.

That's just wrong, in my eyes.

Their sins, if they exist, are best left for god to judge, not us.

We should treat everyone with the respect they've earned, & the ability to pass their property on as they desire, when they die. They should have the same rights as any of us to have health insurance, life insurance, the retirement income of our spouse when he dies, just as the rest of us do. Their contributions to our nation's coffers, & to our society as working human beings, demands no less.

Your all very aware of my religious beliefs.
My comments have nothing to do with religion their sins or my own.
There are already laws providing for the shared benefit of "life partners".
This is not the issue IMO.


It's not enough to get equal right but to gain special privilege.

Marriage is between man and woman.

Call same sex, Man & cat, woman and great dane, living and corpse, unions what you like and grant them equal rights under the law.

It still is not "marriage".

What makes the terminology so important?

Also, where does the hermaphrodite fit in there? Is that person, too, to be denied the sanctity of marriage, even though they were created in their ambiguous sexual state?

It's picking nits for what result, exactly? I just don't get the issue with ppl.

COMMUNICATION is what makes it important Phil.

There is already a definition for Marriage.

It is ridiculous to change a legal definition for a special interest group.

As much as some would like us to be a homogeneous asexual lump of humanity.

We simply are not.

Phil,

When you know something is wrong, and if you act as if it is normal or all right, and you keep your opinion to yourself, then you are as much as agreeing with it. To remain silent is to give approval. OK?

Let us say the ungodly and the ignorant think homosexuality is OK. I only say that for arguments sake since the ignorant and the ungodly do not either know or believe in God or what He has to say concerning any matter.

However if you do believe in God, and in the Bible as His word to us, you can not be for it without denying your faith. This puts Christians in a dilemma. Either you believe every word to be true, or you have to deny all of it. That is the nature of Christianity. To say this was for then, and these scriptures only apply to the Jews, or that some are only for the future, you can pick and choose what you want to believe. And you end up believing nothing.

But lets say they want to approve of it and make homosexual marriage legal. Then make up a new word for it because marriage already is defined and fudge packer or carpet cleaner unions do not fall within that definition. Lets change the definition of marriage if the former isn't satisfactory, because some heterosexual couples would dearly resent the present definition lumping them in with the other. In other words, words do mean something. We live by definitions, we communicate by definitions. So that leaves us to just keep changing definitions. When we say marriage is Hell, then they will want their unions to be referred to as Hell also.

Then why not also approve of bestiality or MAMBA or the rest of the perversions that some people hold dear to themselves? What makes this so different? Why would it be wrong to draw the line here? Why not legalize all perversion?

Homosexuals came out for a purpose. To destroy Christianity and godliness through political correctness. I wouldn't be judging the behavior of anyone if they weren't flaunting their perversion. I couldn't care less what you do in your bedroom. Or anyone else's for that matter. If you like bestiality fine. Don't tell me the details and don't try to get the law to make you a protected species. God calls it perversion in the Bible. I don't care how much society thinks it is just hunky dory, to me it is a perversion, just as the Bible says it is. As a Christian, I am bound by the the rules and the statutes that the God I believe in has laid out for me as a pattern for my life.

It is ridiculous to change a legal definition for a special interest group.

You mean like the way the protestant special interest group changed the same word to control the Mormons' way of life in the 19th century?

I don't see a difference, except in how it makes things more equal for a group of ppl that are being held back, legally by the present definition. A precedent has been set for this already, although I'd say that this time, the reasons are a bit loftier.

And again - no one is making anyone change biblical text. We're talking legal terminology, not religious.

SG - all I can say to you is that fine biblical quote - "let he who is without sin...."

Are you saying that your religion tells you to speak of these ppl in such derogatory terms? To JUDGE them, YOURSELF? To DENY them the gov't-given rights in this country, which was designed to run without religious intervention of our laws?

Again, I ask you - where in the NT does it condemn the homosexual? You point that out to me, & I will accept it & shut up. Until then, I will oppose you with everything I have, as any good American should, imho, when it comes to this issue.

We are discovering that this is not necessarily a matter of choice, that these tendencies can be found in the genetic make-up of certain ppl. Thus, they were made that way, by god, if you will. They were designed by birth to love ppl that previously was against god's will, in the OT. The NT was where god recognized the problem inherent in the system, & addressed it with "perfect grace." He did not address it by changing the genetic make up. He gave them forgiveness for simply BEING. Call it what you will - a man-made flaw put there by the actions of someone's predecessors, if you will, rather than anything put there by god - "the sins of the father," is one way of looking at it. But guess what - THOSE SINS ARE FORGIVEN, EVEN IN YOUR OWN RELIGION. It is not for you to judge or address the private sin of anyone, SG. That is for god & god alone, by the words of your very own savior.

As has been said, by me & by many other ppl, even biblical scholars - the NT began a completely new way of dealing with ppl. We no longer stone them for their sins. We WILL suffer a witch to live. WE DO NOT JUDGE. To do so is a sin in itself, as you well know, when you read the good book.

The rules god made are not 'just for Jews.' By the same token, once these rules have CHANGED, they have changed for EVERYONE, not just those YOU deem worthy of acceptance.

Who the f*ck has said anything about bestiality, save for you & sans? No one. In no way is this a 'gateway law' designed to drive us all to plooking goats & marrying gerbils! We're talking about PPL. Ppl who have contributed in positive ways to our society, the same as you. They choose to live differently than you do, but so do I, as a buddhist. Will you outlaw my right to pray & live in my own fashion, too, because it goes against the grain of your religion? If so, then you, sir, are as anti-American as it gets.

"Homosexuals came out for a purpose. To destroy Christianity and godliness through political correctness."

Where do you GET these thoughts?

They 'came out' because they are AMERICANS. They work & they pay taxes. They don't necessarily, by definition, run around trying to recruit your sons & daughters. They simply want to live in a free country, like you do. They want to work, like you do. They want to be able to retire, just like you do. They want to live & love & work & play & protect themselves & their neighbors & friends just like any other American. They aren't all that different from you. They came out because we, as a "free ppl," give mouth service to the concept that all men are created equal, & should be treated that way by our laws & our gov't, & they believe that it's time we started living up to our words.

The patterns you see laid for you in your life are NOT necessarily the ones god laid out for everyone. God didn't tell you who to love & who to hate. (In fact, as I recall, Jesus told you NOT to hate.) He didn't tell them to, either. However, you both are hard-wired for sexual preference before birth. BFD. Live with it. We aren't all gonna like vanilla ice cream or vampire movies, either.

When religion is used as an excuse to promote hatred, it bothers me, whether the source be christian or moslem or what religion it may be.

I truly believe that there was supposed to be a HUGE change, once Jesus came on the scene, that most christians are failing to see. But I'm certainly no expert on the subject.

The hatred, the exclusions, the lack of understanding, the zero tolerance for so much in this world - these are the things that drove me from the religion.

And you're quite right, jimmy, in that we ARE speaking of legal issues, not religious ones. Either it is right & legal to deny ppl rights based on sexual orientation or it is not. By the words of our Constitution, by the spirit of our Declaration of Independence, & by that which I was taught about this country, I don't think it is, but, as I said - I'm no legal expert.

Moonshine drove you from the religion.
And they wouldnt let you wear your african robe thingy in church.

LOL The difference is I'm talking about today.

Yesterdays ignorance is neither a defense nor an appreciator of today's actions.

You sound like my wife sometimes. Well you left the toilet seat up last week.

What the hell does that have to do with not changing the paper roll today?

The answer is ... nothing.

Phil, we will never agree on this question. Though I have to admit the debate has caused me some opportunity for introspection.
It's good ( and rare ) we can have these discussions and disagree as gentlemen.

Now to step away from the legal and towards the religious for a second.

I am fully in agreement with Slacker G.
Fornication and perversion runs a muck. Almost ever TV / radio show is glorifying narcissism, greed, violence, fornication, and perversion of every description. To ignore and not speak out against evil is to give it deeper root to destroy all that would or could be good in myself and in our society.
It nearly destroyed me and my family and the Spirit restored my faith setting me on a path to try to live right with God. ( though I do a piss poor job most days it's good my salvation does not depend upon my "works" but the blood of Christ)
I stand with the army of God. And I'll be pushed no further by the minions of satan.
As an American I would stand with my homosexual brothers and sisters for " justice " ( each man treated the same ) but not "social justice" ( bring one down to elevate another ).
As a Christian I would pray with them to turn away from their sins and have them pray for me to turn from my own accepting the forgiveness that is all humanity's through the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

This may or may not say it, depending on how you read it Phil.

"""
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.


Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:


Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,


Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,


Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:


Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
"""

I'm sleepy...

That doesn't really say it to me, & nowhere do I see where ppl or gov't should be condemning anyone for any of the above, Zip. It's all between the perp & god.

As much as the far right bitches & moans & beats their breasts about how far into degradation we've become, I am seeing things a bit differently.

Ppl are fornicating LESS now than they did just 25 years ago, in reality. (I know I am, anyway!) Oh, we certainly PUSH sex in both blatant & latent ways, more so than ever, but ya know what? The more we're exposed to it, the less we seem to be actually DOING it. The average American right-winger doesn't give a tinker's damn about who's stealing from whom, who's killing whom, or who's rights are being abused, unless they're a frikken PERVERT, too!

More sex appeal, LESS SEX. THAT's what I'm seeing in our society.

No, our selfish sins are running in far worse directions than who is sleeping with whom.

You want to fight REAL evil? Then get your collective noses out of each others' business, & look around you at the real evil. It isn't a guy loving a guy. It isn't a woman loving a woman. Get your priorities in order.

"Perversion?" You could put that label on one hell of a lot that happens in this country, but to put it on someone else's LOVE? THAT seems awfully perverse to me, that you would feel the need to be so wrapped up in the personal relationships of others, & condemn them, not only in your mind, but loudly, & using rather abusive epithets, because of what they are, & ignore that good which they may do for humanity. And you do it in the name of religion, all while ignoring one of your savior's most valuable lessons - don't judge ppl.

"I don't care if you've been a saint in every other area of your life - if you're a 'fudge-packer' or a 'carpet muncher,' you're less than us straight, regular folk, cuz God says so." PFFT!

I fail to see how the use of the word 'marriage' for any permanent relationship between any two ppl affects you or anyone else in any way. I fail to see how it 'brings you down to their level,' either. The word is used to describe relationships of INANIMATE OBJECTS, sans. There is a 'marriage of idealogies.' Is that perverse, too? Does that bring you down to the level of an idea, or a chemical compound?? Is THAT so offensive?

Hell, considering the good that many of 'them' do in our world, you would do well to emulate them in nearly every way save that one that seems to bother you so much. How many of them could say the same about you?

Let's look at some of these famous 'perverts,' shall we?

Elton John - raised over $125 million to support programs in 55 countries around the globe through prevention and education, elimination of prejudice and discrimination, and providing services to people living with AIDS. He also personally donated over $43 million, in 2004, to various charities. He donated 120 motorcycles to the African nation of Lesotho, to be used by Dr & nurses. Oh, & AIDS isn't the only area in which he tries to help ppl. A list of charities he has donated to :

* Aids Life
* American Foundation for AIDS Research
* Andre Agassi Charitable Foundation
* Breast Cancer Research Foundation
* Children's Tumor Foundation
* Elton John AIDS Foundation
* Exploring The Arts
* Food Bank For New York City
* Gus Dudgeon Foundation
* HELP USA
* Hillsides
* Joey Dipaolo AIDS Foundation
* Kids
* mothers2mothers
* Move For AIDS

* MusiCares
* National Youth Theatre
* Oxfam
* PDSA
* RADD
* Rainforest Foundation Fund
* Riders For Health
* Sporting Chance Clinic
* Terrence Higgins Trust
* The Lunchbox Fund
* The Rainforest Foundation
* Volunteering England
* War Child
* Women's Sports Foundation
* World AIDS Day*

Not bad, for a 'fudge-packer,' I'd say.

Melissa Etheridge - "Melissa’s fans started the Pink Bracelet Fund in her honour.

Etheridge is on the Board of Governors of Love Our Children USA.

Charities & foundations she supports with money & time:

* Clothes Off Our Back
* Dream Foundation
* Feeding America
* Live Earth
* Love Our Children USA

* MusiCares
* Pink Bracelet Fund
* The Art of Elysium
* Treatment Action Campaign
* V-Day**

Pretty good for a 'carpet cleaner,' eh?

Ellen Degeneres - "Recently, DeGeneres learned about an organization called The Gentle Barn. It’s a home and hospital for animals that have been abused. In her website, DeGeneres urges her viewers to donate.

With Ben Affleck, DeGeneres launched the"Small Change Campaign" to benefit Feeding America. Ellen supports the Hurricane Katrina Relief Fund through the American Red Cross.

Degeneres’ Ellen for the Cure campaign, run during October’s Breast Cancer Awareness Month on her television show, supports Susan G. Komen for the Cure.

Her pet charities iclude:
* American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign
* Andre Agassi Charitable Foundation
* Artists Against Racism
* Children's Health Fund
* Clothes Off Our Back
* Family Health International
* Farm Sanctuary
* Feeding America
* Heifer International
* Malaria No More
* Musicians on Call
* ONE Campaign

* Peace Games
* Project Cuddle
* PROJECT ZAMBI
* Red Cross
* Save The Music Foundation
* Society for Animal Protective Legislation
* Stand Up To Cancer
* Stephen J Wampler Foundation
* St. Jude Children's Research Hospital
* Susan G. Komen for the Cure
* The Humane Society"***


In terms of human worth, in terms of contributions to society, who's worth more, these ppl, or Rush Limbaugh? (You're thinking Rush, right? Cuz he brings good ol' fashioned American values to us all through his radio program, & shows us all the truth about the evil right-wing socialists trying to sell us out to the terrorists!)

I'll freely admit that they are better examples of humanity than I am, in terms of what they give to the world, in money, in time, & in personal effort for the collective good.

You gonna tell me that these actions are all part of their elaborate plan, their conspiracy to bring down the church & make us all hate god?

Oh, f*ck it! Stew in your hatred!

It doesn't change my mind about you as ppl, though it does sadden me a bit, but we all have our crosses to bear. I can't hate that much, myself.

I'll never understand your position.

Let's have a frikken beer, & move on...wait...no...you guys go ahead & have the final word. I'll read it, & try my very bestest not to argue anymore, k? THEN we can move on. I'm getting a beer right now, though.






*source : http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/62-elton-john
**Read more: http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity ... z0voapQYTv
Read more: http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity ... z0voajAgfW
***Read more: http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity ... z0vobdcllE

I guess it does all come down to a word. I guess it does come down to one group of people not being happy with all rights being granted to them as a married couple. The word is more important. Then as if gay rights are not enough the word has to be changed to be all inclusive. Sounds like a kid in a candy shop that doesn't know when enough is enough.

So you are right Phil it does all come down to a word. I am not against gay rights. But I am against any one group demanding any thing that goes against my beliefs, and that goes for anything, and way beyond just gay rights.

The funny thing about this is to dissolve a "MARRIAGE" it must be undertaken as a legal proceeding to undo a contract. Why is it so important for gay people to need the use of the word?

I guess it does come down to a word. Thats too sad.

On second thought from now on my wife of 25 years and I will abandon the word. From now on we will consider ourselves in a state of Holy matrimony in that our contract is between God and us only . Does that make everyone feel better.

I suppose you could just have another word for gay marriage if you are hung up on semantics. Say, "Conjoined". As long as the conjoined couple had all of the same rights as a traditionally married couple I would be for it. Then religious folks could keep their word.