General Music Chat

"Venue owners used to care, and know a good band when they saw and heard them."





When was that?

So you successfully lobby for some idiotic new legislation that garners you an extra 40-50 bucks or so per gig. In the creation of this legislation of course several million dollars are spent on lawyers to codify it, bureaucrats to argue it, administrative costs, etc, etc. By the end of it all, either your taxes are used to cover the expenses or the government sells treasuries to China, thus indebting everyone further to foreign investments. Do you begin to see how stupid and pointless this is?

That requires ALL performers/musicians to be paid at least the minimum wage for EVERY musical performance. That must include the time it takes to load, transport, perform, load and transport equipment after the performance. A typical four set gig often results in about eight hours of LABOR. I'm tired of IDIOTS who play for anything less than minimum wage. It's not FAIR for those of us who deserve at least minimum wgae for our HARD WORK. In effect the vast majority of gigging musicians are working in a completely unregulated industry. It's high time for that to change...

wow, that about sums up what I wanted to say , just a little more...delicately

Musicians boycotting clubs would be pointless, as most do not go to bars unless they're playing there. Unless you're a top-shelf band - and there's only so many of those in any city - don't plan on making money playing music. Do it because you have to do it, or stay home with the wife.

Yeah, but what if music is the only you're good at? (Even that being debateable)

What if all you can really do is play or sing?

So you successfully lobby for some idiotic new legislation that garners you an extra 40-50 bucks or so per gig. In the creation of this legislation of course several million dollars are spent on lawyers to codify it, bureaucrats to argue it, administrative costs, etc, etc. By the end of it all, either your taxes are used to cover the expenses or the government sells treasuries to China, thus indebting everyone further to foreign investments. Do you begin to see how stupid and pointless this is?

That requires ALL performers/musicians to be paid at least the minimum wage for EVERY musical performance. That must include the time it takes to load, transport, perform, load and transport equipment after the performance. A typical four set gig often results in about eight hours of LABOR. I'm tired of IDIOTS who play for anything less than minimum wage. It's not FAIR for those of us who deserve at least minimum wgae for our HARD WORK. In effect the vast majority of gigging musicians are working in a completely unregulated industry. It's high time for that to change...

Stupid and pointless is spending countless hours perfecting your music, spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on equipment, working your ass off doing a four set gig and then being happy getting peanuts or playing for free.

The reality of this situation is that if you are a hobbyist musician, that is, you don't support yourself with music nor are willing or able to travel to do so,the market where you live will dictate what your median pay is. Your pay is not reflected by what your ego demands. If there are musicians in your area that will work for less, I would say it's incumbent on you to provide a product or service that is superior enough to warrant more money. Expecting the government to make the world reflect your personal idea of how things should be is unrealistic.

If you are past the age of 35 and you are not supporting yourself playing music, I would have to say that ship has sailed, for whatever reason. Best for you to find solace in the joy of making music and stop whining about how much money you're getting paid. In most cases, the main reason that most guys end up as hobbyists is that they didn't have the fortitude to make the sacrifices earlier in life that are required to be a professional, or they just don't have the talent. This is not a personal indictment of anyone, it's an observation made by many many years of involvement in the business. Unfortunately for you ego, the market dictates your value in industry. If you must rely on government interference to raise your pay level, that does not reflect well on your ability as a musician or a businessman. The truth is a bitch.

So you successfully lobby for some idiotic new legislation that garners you an extra 40-50 bucks or so per gig. In the creation of this legislation of course several million dollars are spent on lawyers to codify it, bureaucrats to argue it, administrative costs, etc, etc. By the end of it all, either your taxes are used to cover the expenses or the government sells treasuries to China, thus indebting everyone further to foreign investments. Do you begin to see how stupid and pointless this is?

That requires ALL performers/musicians to be paid at least the minimum wage for EVERY musical performance. That must include the time it takes to load, transport, perform, load and transport equipment after the performance. A typical four set gig often results in about eight hours of LABOR. I'm tired of IDIOTS who play for anything less than minimum wage. It's not FAIR for those of us who deserve at least minimum wgae for our HARD WORK. In effect the vast majority of gigging musicians are working in a completely unregulated industry. It's high time for that to change...

Stupid and pointless is spending countless hours perfecting your music, spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on equipment, working your ass off doing a four set gig and then being happy getting peanuts or playing for free.

I have to say that JP makes sense. I fall into the hobbiest category frankly. That doesn't mean that folks don't listen, I have a moderate fan base now which seems to grow, but I feel its just that, Interest based at present.

I think in any case if you take joy out of it, you become a machine, machines can look good and produce great results, I prefer gob-smacking good laughs, its nearly taken me to some interesting places in the past too.

If you are past the age of 35 and you are not supporting yourself playing music, I would have to say that ship has sailed, for whatever reason. Best for you to find solace in the joy of making music and stop whining about how much money you're getting paid. In most cases, the main reason that most guys end up as hobbyists is that they didn't have the fortitude to make the sacrifices earlier in life that are required to be a professional, or they just don't have the talent. This is not a personal indictment of anyone, it's an observation made by many many years of involvement in the business. Unfortunately for you ego, the market dictates your value in industry. If you must rely on government interference to raise your pay level, that does not reflect well on your ability as a musician or a businessman. The truth is a bitch.

You are assuming that everone's goal is to be a world-class, touring musician. That simply isn't the case.

Many ppl have made huge sacrifices to play music, losing families, relationships, better lives, even, just to serve their muse, & they've done well at the local levels. Now the freebies are stealing their source of income, as well as their very quality of life, since they can no longer serve the muse.

What of all these guys who've played at the local levels for 20, 30, even 40 years? They've been making a livelihood, off & on, for the entire time, or a least a good portion of it, in any area you may choose...& then the market has dropped out, due to the freebies, the starry-eyed idjits who think exposure equals instant success.

Many artistic type ppl don't really WANT the huge successes. Nor do they want to live in the rat-race areas where, as you seem to think, 'music sells.' Out here in my STICKS, there are innumerable artists plying their crafts - stained glass, painters & potters & fabric artists & musicians, all trying to make a living in this generally resortish area, near enough to the cities to be counted, yet far enough to be able to live unhassled by the vast numbers of jerkwads. We LIKE it here, & USED to be able to make a living here.

It's like all the tight-sweater girls who used to take up space at all the pharmacy soda-fountain counters, cuz Lana Turner got discovered there, once. Now they're taking up space but not really contributing, indeed, ruining the marketplace. Now paying customers can't sit there, & the pharmacy counters have disappeared. (Okay...I prolly took it to far, but you get my point...)

Well, now life-long musicians can't make a living at the local levels thanks to the freebie asswipes who are just looking for attention that never will come. THEIR goals are unrealistic, & they are ruining the market for everyone else, while providing a lesser product.

If we took it upon ourselves to run these leeches out of town, it just night stop, & there could be a possible future, or at least a reprieve from the lackluster wannabes.

OK.

I have an idea.

Why not stop fussing about this on line. Why don't all of you that think we need to organize get off your asses and out from in front of your computers and go out and start organizing in your area. Everything has to start somewhere so why not with you? When I first started playing clubs the union rate was $20.00 a gig. Local music never has paid anything so to speak.

After all, it is a local issue no matter what you envision. Walking and doing will get you much further than typing to a bunch of musicians who are states apart. The people you should be talking to are the local musicians in your area. See if they think your ideas are worth anything. Grass roots, baby, grass roots. Home is where it all begins.

And I'd like to see someone try to run me out of town if I decided to play somewhere for free. Ain't gunna happen. At least not until the Gov police force me out with a small army. At least not as long as it's a free country and we own guns.

It would behoove you to do a little research on economics-the basics of supply and demand. Do you understand that in a controlled, i.e. "small town" market, limited resources will limit remuneration to a standard, and competition by price alone will be a factor? Clients requiring a band for entertainment purposes are not concerned nor bound by your perception of your relative value, but by how well the band hired fulfills the contract entered into. In other words, a band that by your standards "sucks" may very well be more than adequate to fulfill this contract at a lower price. The people paying really could give a squat about your experience, expenses, ability, etc., all of which is extremely subjective anyway. Expecting legislation to address this issue is terribly self indulgent, and really just unrealistic.


You can join the musicians' union, but I can tell you from experience that if you cannot travel and are limited to a certain area, you will effectively NEVER play again, because you are constrained from doing non union gigs.

If you are past the age of 35 and you are not supporting yourself playing music, I would have to say that ship has sailed, for whatever reason. Best for you to find solace in the joy of making music and stop whining about how much money you're getting paid. In most cases, the main reason that most guys end up as hobbyists is that they didn't have the fortitude to make the sacrifices earlier in life that are required to be a professional, or they just don't have the talent. This is not a personal indictment of anyone, it's an observation made by many many years of involvement in the business. Unfortunately for you ego, the market dictates your value in industry. If you must rely on government interference to raise your pay level, that does not reflect well on your ability as a musician or a businessman. The truth is a bitch.

You are assuming that everone's goal is to be a world-class, touring musician. That simply isn't the case.

Many ppl have made huge sacrifices to play music, losing families, relationships, better lives, even, just to serve their muse, & they've done well at the local levels. Now the freebies are stealing their source of income, as well as their very quality of life, since they can no longer serve the muse.

What of all these guys who've played at the local levels for 20, 30, even 40 years? They've been making a livelihood, off & on, for the entire time, or a least a good portion of it, in any area you may choose...& then the market has dropped out, due to the freebies, the starry-eyed idjits who think exposure equals instant success.

Many artistic type ppl don't really WANT the huge successes. Nor do they want to live in the rat-race areas where, as you seem to think, 'music sells.' Out here in my STICKS, there are innumerable artists plying their crafts - stained glass, painters & potters & fabric artists & musicians, all trying to make a living in this generally resortish area, near enough to the cities to be counted, yet far enough to be able to live unhassled by the vast numbers of jerkwads. We LIKE it here, & USED to be able to make a living here.

It's like all the tight-sweater girls who used to take up space at all the pharmacy soda-fountain counters, cuz Lana Turner got discovered there, once. Now they're taking up space but not really contributing, indeed, ruining the marketplace. Now paying customers can't sit there, & the pharmacy counters have disappeared. (Okay...I prolly took it to far, but you get my point...)

Well, now life-long musicians can't make a living at the local levels thanks to the freebie asswipes who are just looking for attention that never will come. THEIR goals are unrealistic, & they are ruining the market for everyone else, while providing a lesser product.

If we took it upon ourselves to run these leeches out of town, it just night stop, & there could be a possible future, or at least a reprieve from the lackluster wannabes.

Yeah, I know about that union crap, which is why I don't belong.

I'm not a total idiot about economics, & supply & demand & such, either.

What I am saying, is that from the 20's through the 50's & even well into the 60's, bands took care of each other. They didn't allow venue owners to skip on promised pay. They didn't allow ppl to steal paying gigs.

As far as SG playing for free goes, that's fine & dandy, as long as he isn't playing a venue that can & should be paying ppl to play. there are lots of those places, & there always have been. That's where the younger musos cut their teeth, historically.

When you start pulling that crap in large venues, where the owners reap bennies without paying for them, you're stepping on workers' toes.

These days, it's just a 'me, my, mine' attitude that no one benefits from. It ain't all about competition.

At one time, juke boxes were ripped out of bars & destroyed, because they were thought to steal profits from the hard-working musician.

Now, many ppl seem to think it's just about getting attention, & it's ruined the whole business. If this trend continues, only ppl who are rich & have the time will be able to perform, cuz no one will make any scratch from it.

I don't care if you're a weekend warrior, an occasional dabbler, or a full-time musician, this is work, & it should be compensated like any other.

You can sit on your ass & laugh about how this is so unrealistic, but if it's allowed here, where will it strike next? Your day job? Don't think it can't happen.

For every millionaire musician there are thousands of professionals making a decent to pretty good living playing music. I did it for over 25 years, but it requires a level of discipline most hobbyists I have known just don't possess.This is not an indictment of them, just an observation. There are players like me-competent but not exceptional-and guys who are so talented that it would be foolish for them not to play professionally. There seems to be a misconception that you are either a big star, or you play in your basement. Not true at all, music is a business, and there are plenty of opportunities. I would say from experience that it is one of the most recession proof businesses I can think of. But it's not for everyone-not even for every musician.


I can imagine as a much younger man the idea of socializing the trade would have appealed to me, I don't know, I can't remember ever considering it because I worked hard enough and was fortunate enough to make a decent living. But now with some insight into the consequences of government subsidies, I can say with all assurance it is a very bad idea.


The bottom line on all of this is that if you accept that you play music for the joy of it and your life is structured that way, enjoy. Stop being bitter about a business decision you ultimately made yourself. There is something vaguely pathetic about middle aged men whining about a few dollars they feel cheated out of. The hardest person to be honest with is always yourself.

"Venue owners used to care, and know a good band when they saw and heard them."

When was that?

Bands have always been looked upon as a necessary evil by the venue owners and treated as such ... the only time that they treat you well is when you can produce top sells at the bar.

If you want to be paid more money .. pay attention to the bar ring up at the end of the night. Whats the ring with NO band and what was the ring when your band played there .. you may be supprised how little they are making or how much they lost because they had to pay for a band .... it's all about the money