General Music Chat

There are a lot of up and coming musicians who need exposure at any pay scale.

No, there are a lot of up & coming musicians who need to pay their dues just like everybody else has had to.

In the old days, the young guy had to join up with an established group, & prove himself as he rose through the ranks. Hendrix worked for established acts like Little Richard before he made it on his own. SRV was David Bowie's guitarist before going out solo. Now? Any idiot with a guitar can go out & get a free gig at the expense of a life-long hard-working musician. Name ONE other field where this has occured.

You can't. Why? Because music is not considered a job. It isn't considered work.

Give a guy a tripod & let him go out surveying without knowing what he's doing. Hell, in MY state, now, a homeowner can't even legally put in his own toilet. A PRO HAS TO DO IT! THOSE professionals found ways to protect themselves from the bland amateur.

But MUSIC? Aw hell, ANY IDIOT CAN DO IT, & DO IT PROFESSIONALLY & get PAID for the crap he plays.

You've apparently never worked in large markets where sometimes there is even a "pay to play" atmosphere.

No I haven't, & truth be told, I would QUIT public performance before I paid to play. I have nearly 40 years of pro experience, & that is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of. It just tells me that there are too many musos in the field. Quantity has erased quality,

These kind of well intentioned laws always have negative unintended consequences. If you're competent and offer a good product, you will get a fair wage playing music. "Leveling the playing field" is not a good idea.

You're looking at it backwards. The amateur already HAS 'levelled the playing field.' He hasn't brought himself up to pro status. He's brought all the pros down to AMATEUR status, sometimes to the point that the life-long, proven pro has to PAY TO PLAY for an audience. And you're quite right, the levelling wasn't a good idea. It has destroyed our entire field of work. It has allowed anyone to perform, even when they shouldn't. It has forced good ppl out of music, cuz they simply can't afford to do it anymore. It has also ruined the art, by dumping sh*t into everyone's ear & calling it 'music.'

NO ONE is getting a 'fair wage playing music' unless they're selling out stadiums, & even THEY have to pay off huge debts to recording co's. Our field has been ruined by the amateurs & the corp's, & it's rapidly going the route of the newspapers, because of the pure stupidity of allowing anyone & everyone do what the pros should do exclusively.

Look...it's like every other endeavor out there - NOT EVERYONE SHOULD DO IT PROFESSIONALLY.

Imho, hippies & psychologists ruined music with the attitude that 'everyone is a star' bullshit propaganda. NOT everyone is a star, ppl. Some of us are ditch diggers, garbage collectors, & pizza deliverymen. Quit trying to make everyone a frikken star, & allow those few that really ARE stars to BE stars (always assuming, of course, that I am in those chosen few!).

The nearer you are located to a major music area (L.A., New York, Nashville, Detroit, etc) the more musicians and hence more bands you will find. Many of these bands will play for the door, for free or even pay-to-play just to get exposure. Many bands depend on selling merch instead of the door money just to make it. If you're a cover band you can negotiate a flat fee for the night but only the top bands get top pay.

Just the kind of response I would expect from someone who has obviously never made a living playing music. If you have, you would know that among successful professionals, music is indeed "work" (that's what it's called actually) and you get paid commensurate to your abilities. The only people whining about legal protection for wages playing music are the ones who couldn't cut it and decided to be a hobbyist with large opinions and small minds.

There are a lot of up and coming musicians who need exposure at any pay scale.

No, there are a lot of up & coming musicians who need to pay their dues just like everybody else has had to.

In the old days, the young guy had to join up with an established group, & prove himself as he rose through the ranks. Hendrix worked for established acts like Little Richard before he made it on his own. SRV was David Bowie's guitarist before going out solo. Now? Any idiot with a guitar can go out & get a free gig at the expense of a life-long hard-working musician. Name ONE other field where this has occured.

You can't. Why? Because music is not considered a job. It isn't considered work.

Give a guy a tripod & let him go out surveying without knowing what he's doing. Hell, in MY state, now, a homeowner can't even legally put in his own toilet. A PRO HAS TO DO IT! THOSE professionals found ways to protect themselves from the bland amateur.

But MUSIC? Aw hell, ANY IDIOT CAN DO IT, & DO IT PROFESSIONALLY & get PAID for the crap he plays.

You've apparently never worked in large markets where sometimes there is even a "pay to play" atmosphere.

No I haven't, & truth be told, I would QUIT public performance before I paid to play. I have nearly 40 years of pro experience, & that is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of. It just tells me that there are too many musos in the field. Quantity has erased quality,

These kind of well intentioned laws always have negative unintended consequences. If you're competent and offer a good product, you will get a fair wage playing music. "Leveling the playing field" is not a good idea.

You're looking at it backwards. The amateur already HAS 'levelled the playing field.' He hasn't brought himself up to pro status. He's brought all the pros down to AMATEUR status, sometimes to the point that the life-long, proven pro has to PAY TO PLAY for an audience. And you're quite right, the levelling wasn't a good idea. It has destroyed our entire field of work. It has allowed anyone to perform, even when they shouldn't. It has forced good ppl out of music, cuz they simply can't afford to do it anymore. It has also ruined the art, by dumping sh*t into everyone's ear & calling it 'music.'

NO ONE is getting a 'fair wage playing music' unless they're selling out stadiums, & even THEY have to pay off huge debts to recording co's. Our field has been ruined by the amateurs & the corp's, & it's rapidly going the route of the newspapers, because of the pure stupidity of allowing anyone & everyone do what the pros should do exclusively.

Look...it's like every other endeavor out there - NOT EVERYONE SHOULD DO IT PROFESSIONALLY.

Imho, hippies & psychologists ruined music with the attitude that 'everyone is a star' bullshit propaganda. NOT everyone is a star, ppl. Some of us are ditch diggers, garbage collectors, & pizza deliverymen. Quit trying to make everyone a frikken star, & allow those few that really ARE stars to BE stars (always assuming, of course, that I am in those chosen few!).

It seems there is truth and logic on both sides of this issue.
The place that up and coming entertainers need to get their
experience and exposure. Is the same place that experienced
local pros need to bang out a respectable wage just to exist
in their local music scene.

If a young talented musician is willing to play for nothing.
Who should tell him he cant. He needs his exposure and
experience. It's a free Country. He gets it when and where he can.

On the other hand, why should an experienced player be
shut out from doing what hes been doing all his life and
payed his dues and just wants a fair bottom end wage so
he can exist with some dignity in his local music scene.

I think this arm of the music industry (local bar, local venue)
is self sustaining and basicly feeds on itself. Theres an entrance and an
exit. Inbetween there's a chance for the ultratalented and or
lucky to break free. There are many things that keep that
from happening for people. This level sucks but serves a purpose.

I believe the answer to surviving this level is in
each individual. The struggle for success has to happen
somewhere.

Ooooooooooh! Personal attack for a qualified opposing opinion! Now you're in another one of my areas of expertise, junior. This is the kind of stupid response I'd expect from someone who can't even put up his music in an MP3 format, like the site requests, or check out someone before he attacks. You're really under-qualified to assess me in any way, but hell, have at it if you have the cojones.

heh heh heh

I HAVE made a living playing music. Stop & check things out before you attack, boy.

Music is considered 'playing' by the general public. You 'play' guitar, you don't 'work' it. You 'play' gigs, you don't 'work' them, in the minds of the public AND the venue owners, more often than not. If you do your job right, you look like you're having the time of your life, no matter how crappy you feel, & that's all they know about it...& THAT's all the rank amateurs know about it, too. They think it's all fun & games.

Your opinions of me aside, I would hope that you have enough intelligence to realize that the average pay for musicians has either remained the same, or gone DOWN, over the last 40 years, in spite of the continually rising cost of living...unless, of course, you've lived in a box under someone's bed, with their collection of other marital aids.

Oh, & I'm not the one calling for gov't protection, if you bothered to read my posts. I'm the one calling for musos to band together & kick the asses of the freebie twits out there. BIG difference.

You have yet to address any of the finer points I made, preferring to simply attack without cause.

I still maintain that the amateur has brought the pro down to his level.

Argue THAT point, instead of showing that you'd rather sidestep the issue with an attitude that you are entitled to everything just because you exist, rather than because you've actually EARNED anything.

Consider this - today, I would have to book 1 1/2 to 2 times the gigs to make the living wages I made just 12 years ago. Why? Not because I've gotten worse at my craft, but because the WORK that I do has been discounted by the innumerable ranks of amateurs out there doing it, too, & for less money, or for free.

Next time, THINK before you post.

No matter how many strings on your bass.

There's always someone who can kick your ass.

I am not an amateur by any standard. But guess what? I would rather play for free rather than be insulted by todays pay scale. Not only that, but I would rather not even play in a club if the music is not appreciated. I played 7 gigs a week for over 12 years. That is a lot of gigs, and I did make a good living at it. So I guess I could be called a professional.
It is people who piss me off the most. Not the club owners. People who ask me to play a song for their friend and distract them from hearing it by talking to them and distracting them all the while I am playing it. Drunks are all the same to me. Should we form a listeners union to lock those types out of the clubs so we can work for more money?

The economy is what it is, and years of DJ music have killed the price of live music as much as anything. So why did DJ's get in? Because the club owner is in the business to make money. He didn't open a club so out of work musicians would have somewhere to display their craft.
Poor musicians playing for $15 or $20 below what was the average hasn't helped either. And if a club is making it without music why the hell should they share the profits with a band? And if the crowd doesn't care, then why shouldn't they go for the best buy? So we should join together and lock out other musicians because we think they are dragging down the pay scale. Good luck with that. As long as it is a semi free country that will most likely end up locking you out instead.

It is a free country. Let the hacks have at it. At a time when you were just learning you would not like anyone telling you had to give up a club job just because they didn't think you deserved it. How exciting was your first gig? Were you way better than the other bands in the area? So who the F**k makes any of of us judge and jury now? Get over it. The world of music isn't going to bow to you or any one of us. That's just the occupational hazard that comes with music. If Joe Blow makes hot dogs that taste like sh*t and you make good tasting hot dogs who is going to shut him down? You or the people who don't like hot dogs that taste like sh*t. Perhaps he sells his for less. Should all the good hot dog makers become food police and shut him down? Even against the will of the people eating them? Welcome to Obastard care.... samey samey. And you want to do that with free enterprise music.

I will play where I want and when I want for whatever I want and no music police are ever going to stop me. The unions of yesteryear couldn't stop me and the unions of tomorrow won't stop me either. I am fro free speech and I am for free enterprise. If a young band hustles a job, I will be the last to tell the club owner how to run his business or tell the band he hires that I am unhappy with his decision so they have to go. It's that simple. If bands aren't creative enough to get hired on their terms they need to get creative enough to make themselves a desired product or wake up and smell the roses. The music profession simply is what it is.

I call myself a guitar player. That doesn't mean I am inferior to someone calling himself a guitarist. There are a lot of guitar players and bass players that do not mind being called such. Good Guitar player, mediocre guitar player, bad guitar player. It is a generic term. Would you prefer to be called a guitarist? Then put that on your business card. I saw a card that had that on it. When I went to hear him he was anything but that. They can call me whatever they wish. My pickin speaks louder than what I am called. I refer to myself as a guitar picker. Big deal. When someone asks my drummer how many in our group, he tells them: "3 musicians and a drummer" He finds that funny.

Do you honestly believe we would get a better gig if we told the bar keep we were a trio with a percussionist, bassist and a guitarist? And would that make anyone better than a guitar picker or a guitar player? Would that make you sound so much better that the barkeep would run up to you after the gig with a hand full of extra cash? The terminology all means the same to the people hiring us, doesn't it?

I agree with a lot of the points given. But go book a club and tell them you have a good point of view so you should get more money than the other guy and see if it flies. If I owned a club you would damned well believe I would hire whom I want, if I want, and when I want. And I would pay what I wanted to. It would be MY free enterprise since I am the one who put his money at risk. Don't like the pay? Open your own club and hire whomever for whatever. Then I would gladly back you up.

A HUGE part of the reason that the public doesn't care about live music anymore is that the musicians don't provide enough effort into their craft.

Once again - the amateurs at work, here.

The pro provides entertainment. The amateur plays. The pro works.

The audiences have suffered at their hands as much as we have.

If all you wanna do is play music, stay in your garage & play music.

If you're being paid to entertain, then do the job. Today's band. for the most part, doesn't DO THE JOB, because they are rank amateurs, rather than professionals who hone their craft.

However, the sheer numbers of amateurs have caused the drop in audience interest, as well as pay.

Yeah, if you really worked up a good program, & performed it consistently well, your pay would increase...SLIGHTLY...thanks to the ranks of alternatives that don't provide the right stuff. Not only that, but the venues you COULD play at would be few indeed, I'll grant you that.


From what I've seen, you can say what you will about DJ's but they entertain. They don't just sit on their asses & spin CD's. They relate to the ppl. They get them involved, if they're any good at all. When was the last time you saw a band doing that? They're out there, but they're few & far between, preferring to 'let the music speak for itself.' What a buncha crock!

All I'm saying is that the more low-quality crap that's allowed into the equation, for free, the less valuable everyone's product becomes.

And it's the true musicians that suffer the most.

Lol-the only people I've met more delusional than artists are musicians. Of course you're not gonna make any money holed up in bumfuck West Virgina or cowflop, Kansas. Music is like any business or trade, you have to go where the money and the gigs are. Washington DC is even a mickey mouse music town-you think people in a small town are going to be able to afford to pay much for your services? It' all relative.If you have a family and you love playing music, God bless ya, there's a place for you in this world. But please spare me with complaints about pay, it's just shows you are really ignorant about how business works.

Ooooooooooh! Personal attack for a qualified opposing opinion! Now you're in another one of my areas of expertise, junior. This is the kind of stupid response I'd expect from someone who can't even put up his music in an MP3 format, like the site requests, or check out someone before he attacks. You're really under-qualified to assess me in any way, but hell, have at it if you have the cojones.

heh heh heh

I HAVE made a living playing music. Stop & check things out before you attack, boy.

Music is considered 'playing' by the general public. You 'play' guitar, you don't 'work' it. You 'play' gigs, you don't 'work' them, in the minds of the public AND the venue owners, more often than not. If you do your job right, you look like you're having the time of your life, no matter how crappy you feel, & that's all they know about it...& THAT's all the rank amateurs know about it, too. They think it's all fun & games.

Your opinions of me aside, I would hope that you have enough intelligence to realize that the average pay for musicians has either remained the same, or gone DOWN, over the last 40 years, in spite of the continually rising cost of living...unless, of course, you've lived in a box under someone's bed, with their collection of other marital aids.

Oh, & I'm not the one calling for gov't protection, if you bothered to read my posts. I'm the one calling for musos to band together & kick the asses of the freebie twits out there. BIG difference.

You have yet to address any of the finer points I made, preferring to simply attack without cause.

I still maintain that the amateur has brought the pro down to his level.

Argue THAT point, instead of showing that you'd rather sidestep the issue with an attitude that you are entitled to everything just because you exist, rather than because you've actually EARNED anything.

Consider this - today, I would have to book 1 1/2 to 2 times the gigs to make the living wages I made just 12 years ago. Why? Not because I've gotten worse at my craft, but because the WORK that I do has been discounted by the innumerable ranks of amateurs out there doing it, too, & for less money, or for free.

Next time, THINK before you post.

I love it! First you tell me that you have to pay to play in the big cities, then you tell me there's no money to be made elsewhere! So, in essense, there's no money to be made, right?

I did pretty damned well as a solo, just touring a lil 400 square mile area, & I only worked 4 days a week, at that.

I haven't always lived here, either.

EVERY other biz has had increases over the last 40 years, so why not music? Cuzza the freebies & the el cheapo alternatives, AND because musicians typically don't do their job. I don't care WHERE you choose to live, it's gonna be relatively the same, with these points to contend with.

Yes, business works this way - as long as it's allowed to. And that, sir, is my point. There's no reason to allow it to.

In the old days, the young guy had to join up with an established group, & prove himself as he rose through the ranks

I started play with a 4pc when I was 10 yrs old ... we sounded like sh*t and got only a few gigs. By the time I was 15yrs old I was picked up by a band 20 somethings and played strip clubs for 2 yrs ... and I learnt how to play every genre that was out that at that time. Then I moved into prog-rock ... jazz ect over the years ... so yea you are right Phil back then there was a filter system ... the amateur never got the play the A or B clubs where there was money to be made ... they might get a gig in some dive playing sh*t music but they only get to do that maybe twice and then sent packing back to the garage ...

However, the sheer numbers of amateurs have caused the drop in audience interest, as well as pay.

I'm see this in many venues that have gone to pay to play ... the musos have little or no knowledge of music, chord structure (hell even the name of a chord or note) song composition ... etc. ... I'm not saying that you needed to be formally educated ... but you have to have some sort of clue about it. The music is more noise than music and maybe 1 out of a 100 bands have something good going on. Your return to the venue is base on how many of your friends that you got to go to the show, not how many ppl at the venue liked what you were doing ... this is usually the start of a slow death for the venue from what I've seen.

Yeah, if you really worked up a good program, & performed it consistently well, your pay would increase

It's all about the bar ring up at the end of the night ... a good band will know what the number is and keep trying to increase it ... the more you increase it the more you will get paid.

"ANY IDIOT CAN DO IT, & DO IT PROFESSIONALLY & get PAID for the crap he plays..."




There is no need for personal attacks against ME, man.

LOL

Hey, I'm an idiot, & I do it, too!

I MUST be an idiot if I'm still trying...

Prevost, you are one of the few on here that know & understand what I'm talking about.

And yes, there has been a HUGE decrease in those A & B venues, as well, probably because they, too, bought into the idea that they can reap more rewards from using sub-quality, cheaper acts. Once they started doing that, they could no longer justify their higher costs, cuz the same crappy entertainment could be found in any dive you care to choose.

Nightclubs don't exist anymore. Musicians are fast becoming obsolete, thanks to the amateurs that have nothing but hustle behind them to get the gigs. They've ruined the industry.

Man, I wish I could play a nightclub! I haven't even seen one in over 30 years. they had dress codes. They had clean atmospheres. They had quality staff, & best of all - QUALITY ENTERTAINMENT.


Chris - if you wanna play in LA or even NYC, in many areas, you'll pay the establishment & take the draw from the door. You won't get hired otherwise (if you can even CALL that "being hired!")