General Music Chat

I didn't get this up fast enough,,,, Bob who wants to be an employee? Who wants to be a rockstar?
JW, of all the posts you made you seem to pretty sharp with the propane business, I know you have talent, Are you just content to keep going down to the same old fished out swimming hole and doing things the same way. Time to change the plan, or rethink the goals.

You guys think I'm crazy but I hate it most when things stay the BORING same, always cautious do the safe thing, thing. Life is to short for that sh*t.

There was a chick on some other site doing electronica pop that is not my thing. She had over 40 original songs up. every song broke every songwriting ,musical rule you could think of. She got me ,you may hear of her someday. Nothing safe,cautious, just a real FREE SPIRIT.

Thanks Klugmo.

Bob our band plays for a minimum of $100 per man for a 4 hour show. So I guess if you look at hourly figures and say its 8 hrs for a show then my guys are gettin $12.50 an hour. We made the decision a few monthes ago to go up to $150 per man. Its been very slow getting gigs at this rate.

Glen my band is basically a weekend warrior band. From a business standpoint you have to decide what its worth. The sad thing is for the time invested to get to the level that i play at. I cant afford to even take a gig anymore, if my only consideration is money. Its just a bad deal period. Maybe my plans didnt pan out like I thought they would, maybe the economy tanked at a bad time, hell maybe its BPs fault LOL.

I just dont like the idea of forming unions. Bobs point is good, but what determines the value of the group. Does that mean that a musician in order to get his basic pay must have some sort of formal training. Does it mean he has to take a yearly test, or take so many hours of training each year to maintan his skill level. I mean I show up with a guitar and just because I have a guitar I should get x amount of money no matter how well I play or how well I draw. Most musicains have no real credentials to get any money at all. I dont, do you? Just because I can paly a few songs does that mean Im worth anything. There used to be a club in my area and they had a killer band, but they hired the players individually for the group, then they handed them the music they wanted them to play. The musicians had no choice what they played and every few weeks guest singers would come in and they would have to know the music. The flip side is listening to most of us on here, we all have big egos and "know" what the audience wants to hear. Yea they want to hear my pet songs whatever they may be cover or original. Im gonna do it my way, and Im so damn good that they will love me. 3 songs into your set and some one says play Brown Eyed Girl, what happens then.

Sorry for the rant. Im one of the guys that will play for free just cause I love it, but Im very frustrated with the state of music these days as far as live music goes.

frikkum frakkum frukkum foo! I STILL say we need big ugly bulky militant musicians to kick some pansy freebie ass!

LOL

Some of us pansy freebies are well armed and fight for fun.

I really think your dead ass wrong in blaming "free" musicians for the condition of the music business.
More likely the other way around.
The reason I'm sure is quite complex.
Last "bar band" I heard sucked.
And the drunken fools knew no difference.
Damn few people go to a bar for music as the primary goal.
Possibly no one.

Stop bitching about the state of the music business and change it.

WE are the entrepreneurs, not the bar / venue owners.

Get large and in charge.

When the janitors, bartenders, bouncers, waitresses, etc. ALL make more money per hour than the band members then something is WRONG. It doesn't matter how many people show up, whether the place is packed or empty. There are fixed costs for the venue owner. Band members should be a fixed cost, just like all the other employees. When I gig I consider myself an employee that night. I play my ass off for four sets, show up on time, start on time, finish on time. I expect to be paid at least minimum wage. That's not too much to ask, is it?

From a venue owner view bartenders and waitresses provide a primary function, sell and push booze. Janitors and bouncers provide a secondary funtion, keep the place clean and keep the peace os they can sell more booze. They have to have these funtions or they would go out of business. A band on the other hand may increase booze sales but it also increases costs ... so it a gamble if it will bring in more profit. If there's a venue down the street that has music every weekend ... then he also has to bring in a band to compete with the other venue ... but in both cases the owner is going to go for the best bang for his buck which means paying the band as little as possible.

People will only pay as much as they believe something is worth at the time.

JW, I would not consider that a rant. You of all people are one of few that have the understanding to change things to the way you want them. I can understand your frustration, but if someone with your talent and free market skills gets upset then we are all in trouble.
Quite a while back someone criticized Kerry [crip2nite] for trying to be a 50 year old rockstar. I loved his reply which was basically, Hey asshole, I'm doing something I love, I'm making friends every time we play, and it makes me happy to share. Sounds a bit like Sans and some of the other players here.
Kerry put on a show last night, started at 11, sorry I missed it but at my old age I have to switch my schedule around way too much for one night. I hope he does a concert instead, I'm just not into ,going to a bar and drinking and getting shoved around and fighting off the urge to rip off the rude dudes face.
John , don't mean to rant here either, I really do wish you the best.

People will only pay as much as they believe something is worth at the time.

Unfortunately, most music isn't worth squat these days. whether it's good or bad.

Freebie christian music is in a whole 'nuther category, sans, but when you're talking mainstream music in mainstream venues, ass-kicking's called for.

I may have started a huge can of worms. I put this same thread on Craig's List in Kansas City and I there's some people on there calling for a boycott of clubs that don't pay live musicians what they are worth. I guess I'm not the only one pissed off about this.

Musicians boycotting clubs would be pointless, as most do not go to bars unless they're playing there. Unless you're a top-shelf band - and there's only so many of those in any city - don't plan on making money playing music. Do it because you have to do it, or stay home with the wife.

Musicians boycotting clubs would be pointless, as most do not go to bars unless they're playing there. Unless you're a top-shelf band - and there's only so many of those in any city - don't plan on making money playing music. Do it because you have to do it, or stay home with the wife.

What he said.


Most bars are struggling just to stay open. Live music is, and has always been, way down on the owner's priority list.

You gotta pay your dues, but you also gotta realize that they are never paid up.

All the same, the venue we played last night payed us pretty well. ( we did not ask nor expected anything ) And fed us too. Were talking home cooked meatloaf green beans and mashed taters.
Tony was too sick to sing but acted as roadie / sound man.
The acoustics were great, no reverb at all I could discern and they really wanted us to rock the house so we obliged them.
The stage was just the right size for our full rig, and they put up additional colored sound activated lighting for the show. Heck they even ran smoke
We have collected about %75 of the cash we need to complete our CD at this point so if we don't book anything for a while we will get this done as well.

We were told they wanted us to be there for the "grand opening celebration".
After our last song the crowd ( small but active ) wanted us to do "one more song". Ray asked if they wanted a soft or a loud finally and you can guess what they said. I asked the audience " does anyone have a Bick Lighter" and after repeating myself twice one gent said " I do " and handed his lighter to Tony whom brought it to me. I flicked it on held it over my head as I bumped up the volume and soak controls on my amp
then proceeded to play slide and squeal effects on my guitar while Steve hammered out a simple beat. I nodded to Steve-o and with just a fraction of glitch in timing we went into NOISE POLLUTION me playing my guitar with this guys lighter.

Tony was sick with a respiratory infection but said getting to watch the show from the audience perspective gave him some real insight into just what he was a part of. Ray had a cold. Steve had steel showing on one of his tires and made the one hour drive anyway
Eric had car trouble too and had to drive slow going and coming home.
Even I was nauseated most of the night from something I ate.
But we pulled it off and not one of them complained or hesitated.
I am understandably proud of those boyz today.
What a band !!

P.S. I'm going to copy and paste this story under the heading "got a light".
So if you caught it here you wont waste your time reading it again.

The very last thing we need is more federal bureaucracy. There are a lot of up and coming musicians who need exposure at any pay scale. You've apparently never worked in large markets where sometimes there is even a "pay to play" atmosphere. These kind of well intentioned laws always have negative unintended consequences. If you're competent and offer a good product, you will get a fair wage playing music. "Leveling the playing field" is not a good idea.

My feelings exactly. I think you will see support for idiocy like this will be inversely proportional to talent and marketability.

I strongly disagree.

You want a playing job and can't get one? Get better then. Get so good that bands will fight each other to hire you. Any good picker can get a job anytime around here. And if the venue won't support live music, then being in a union won't help one bit. Because unions always drive up wages, even those few bands working now would be cut off.

The last thing we need is more federal laws telling us what we can and can't do. I am already up to my ears with this nanny state telling me what I should eat, what I can smoke or that I have to quit smoking to keep my Obastardcare.
Not? Then you need to fu&*^%g wake up and smell the roses. EVERY aspect of your life, from the size of your car, to the amount of energy you use in your home, what you can and can't eat, where you can work and for how much, and how much you can earn as an owner of a company are already in the health care, environmental protection, and so called banking laws. When they go into effect you will understand socialism and communism. Mark my words. It is coming.

And if you unionize the demoncrats will be stealing money from you to pad their re election campaigns. I am for the right to work without being union laws. I won't be forced to joining any extortion group. And that is exactly what unions are. And that is what this administration is. Thugs that have made it to the top on the votes of the ignorant. Thugs who have set in place a shadow government outside of constitutional law. We already only vote for a group of commie bastards selected by the powers that be. None of them can be trusted. You only get to choose from those that agree to comply with the wishes of the powers that be. They are all on the take. They have all been selected from an approved group of people before you got to vote for these empty suits. Will you believe it when we only have one person to vote for like every other commie country? Or when you have no vote at all? Some of you still won't wake up even then.

Someone is kind enough to give you a job. You agree to work for them for a set amount of wages. You are happy with your wages, then you look at your employer, judge him, and see that he makes too much. Then you covet what he has and become dissatisfied with what you have. So you use extortion and threaten to shut him down if he don't give you more money. And you think this is all right? Consider your band mates were union and you were their employer. How would you like to be threatened every couple of years to give them more money while at the same time the market won't or can't support it?
Unions are thieves. Not? Take a look at our pro union government that is screwing tax payers for their over inflated wages and pensions. Taxpayers who can't even make it as it is. Unions are known for their thuggery.

And how would you like it when crappy musicians get union cards and you can't fire them and have to keep them even if they make your band suck? How about it when they tell you how many members you can have in your band, or what instruments you can or can not have for your particular genre of music? Unions have always done that in every other unionized occupation. How about when they tell you that your lead guitar player or other band members can not sing because that robs a union singer who doesn't play an instrument of a job? You think you would be above that? .... snicker snicker That is how it works in the movie industry. That is how it works in any other unionized industry.
OK You are going to screen and apply a skill test to become a union musician? Everyone cheats. Look at union workers today in any field. Crappy work, less work for the pay and so on. And what if YOU don't meet someones standards? Unions are clannish and corrupt. You haven't observed that for yourselves yet?

Sorry for the rant. That just pushed my piss me off button.

I suspect you are right jp.