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#118039 by fisherman bob
Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:01 pm
That requires ALL performers/musicians to be paid at least the minimum wage for EVERY musical performance. That must include the time it takes to load, transport, perform, load and transport equipment after the performance. A typical four set gig often results in about eight hours of LABOR. I'm tired of IDIOTS who play for anything less than minimum wage. It's not FAIR for those of us who deserve at least minimum wgae for our HARD WORK. In effect the vast majority of gigging musicians are working in a completely unregulated industry. It's high time for that to change...

#118041 by philbymon
Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:06 pm
Nice thought, bob!

Ours IS the only industry where the pay has decreased, or remained the same, depending upon where you live.

Still, I maintain that it's our own fault. If we banded together & started kicking asses of those who play for free, like they did in the old days, it would stop.

I truly believe it's way past time we started kicking some ass.

What we need is a union, nationwide, that will handle things like this in a militant manner, until we get things running straight again.

#118050 by Slacker G
Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:02 pm
I strongly disagree.

You want a playing job and can't get one? Get better then. Get so good that bands will fight each other to hire you. Any good picker can get a job anytime around here. And if the venue won't support live music, then being in a union won't help one bit. Because unions always drive up wages, even those few bands working now would be cut off.

The last thing we need is more federal laws telling us what we can and can't do. I am already up to my ears with this nanny state telling me what I should eat, what I can smoke or that I have to quit smoking to keep my Obastardcare.
Not? Then you need to fu&*^%g wake up and smell the roses. EVERY aspect of your life, from the size of your car, to the amount of energy you use in your home, what you can and can't eat, where you can work and for how much, and how much you can earn as an owner of a company are already in the health care, environmental protection, and so called banking laws. When they go into effect you will understand socialism and communism. Mark my words. It is coming.

And if you unionize the demoncrats will be stealing money from you to pad their re election campaigns. I am for the right to work without being union laws. I won't be forced to joining any extortion group. And that is exactly what unions are. And that is what this administration is. Thugs that have made it to the top on the votes of the ignorant. Thugs who have set in place a shadow government outside of constitutional law. We already only vote for a group of commie bastards selected by the powers that be. None of them can be trusted. You only get to choose from those that agree to comply with the wishes of the powers that be. They are all on the take. They have all been selected from an approved group of people before you got to vote for these empty suits. Will you believe it when we only have one person to vote for like every other commie country? Or when you have no vote at all? Some of you still won't wake up even then.

Someone is kind enough to give you a job. You agree to work for them for a set amount of wages. You are happy with your wages, then you look at your employer, judge him, and see that he makes too much. Then you covet what he has and become dissatisfied with what you have. So you use extortion and threaten to shut him down if he don't give you more money. And you think this is all right? Consider your band mates were union and you were their employer. How would you like to be threatened every couple of years to give them more money while at the same time the market won't or can't support it?
Unions are thieves. Not? Take a look at our pro union government that is screwing tax payers for their over inflated wages and pensions. Taxpayers who can't even make it as it is. Unions are known for their thuggery.

And how would you like it when crappy musicians get union cards and you can't fire them and have to keep them even if they make your band suck? How about it when they tell you how many members you can have in your band, or what instruments you can or can not have for your particular genre of music? Unions have always done that in every other unionized occupation. How about when they tell you that your lead guitar player or other band members can not sing because that robs a union singer who doesn't play an instrument of a job? You think you would be above that? .... snicker snicker That is how it works in the movie industry. That is how it works in any other unionized industry.
OK You are going to screen and apply a skill test to become a union musician? Everyone cheats. Look at union workers today in any field. Crappy work, less work for the pay and so on. And what if YOU don't meet someones standards? Unions are clannish and corrupt. You haven't observed that for yourselves yet?

Sorry for the rant. That just pushed my piss me off button. :evil:

#118057 by philbymon
Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:39 pm
Eh...I think that there is a real need for us to take steps to protecting our chosen career paths, SG. Banding together is one of the tried-&-true methods.

Yes, unions often go too far, & take too much control from the members.

In truth, I obviously don't have any real answers to our problems, but the unions did, at one time, protect the lives of musicians, & assured the best incomes for its members, even through the Great Depression.

The scabs that are stealing our incomes, & have been, for over 30-40 years, have been laughed at by musicians for the entire time. Now, we are suffering the results of their efforts. They have reduced our income. They have discounted our very worth.

How can we possibly regain some sort of control, & be paid the worth of our efforts? Should we just hang up our instruments & give up?

Every bar that hires a band for $100 or less for each musician, is effectively taking advantage of us. Every musician that works "for the exposure" is, in effect, stealing a potential gig from a hard-working musician. There was a time when this sort of thing was met with violence, & it was stopped. These "friendlier" days, we are encouraged to look the other way, & allow ppl to ruin our careers.

During Prohibition, during the Great Depression, musicians were the LEAST affected by the gov't intervention & the economic times. Now we are at the mercy of every twist & turn of the economy, by the gov't's intervention with ppl's rights to move about freely, & by OTHER MUSICIANS who will work for free!

We can band together & take back what's ours, or we can lie down & give up.

#118069 by Starfish Scott
Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:16 pm
A general rule of thumb is "anytime the govt. gets involved, it's sure to be a clusterfuck".

#118072 by jimmydanger
Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:23 pm
Are laws and unions perfect? No. Unfortunately without laws and unions many employers would not pay employees what they're worth. Coal miners would be risking their lives for a few bucks an hour, auto workers would be working 12-hour shifts without overtime pay and millions of families would not enjoy the standard of living we expect in this country. Saying that union workers produce sub-par products is just a gross lie.

#118078 by KLUGMO
Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:37 pm
I believe you are all right.
I also believe that like most industries, greed will take over and ruin
it for everyone.

#118079 by TheCaptain
Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:39 pm
man... the libertarian side of me juuuust balks hard at such an idea...

I know you mean well Fishdoode, and I'd love to wrap my arms around all yall & give ya guaranteed pay...

but man, is that REALLY what the USA is all about?
Is our government really supposed to care for us from cradle to grave, and make sure nothing bad happens to us?

I'm not sure if this was tongue in cheek or not, though actually..
before I type too much more..

hey, doesn't the UK do this?

#118081 by KLUGMO
Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Actually yes it's their job to protect
and defend the citizenry. But add billions of $ in the mix
and we have what we have.

Actualy it's Trillions.

#118083 by jimmydanger
Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:09 pm
We can't ALL be right Klug.

If we didn't give billions to countries like Israel and Pakistan we would be able to do more for our own citizens. If the Republicants had their way we'd all be making poverty-level wages while the multi-national corps would make trillions. Oh wait...

#118084 by KLUGMO
Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:13 pm
I believe the word ramafication has been replaced
with 2 words in all Business schools and text books
around the world with "profit maximization".
Spelling is not my strength.

#118086 by KLUGMO
Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:20 pm
I think they can all be right because whatever party they
are blameing for the downfall of their musical prosperity
will have their greedy gowgeing hands in the till trying to
extract every penny they can and "F" the other guy.

#118088 by Stringdancer
Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:40 pm
Art in all its form music included has been and always will be a meritocracy, morality can’t be legislated taste can’t be accounted therefore the choice of who should paint, act, sculpt, sing and play should be of the people by the people for the people.

Ok I’m off the soapbox but seriously guys IMO the 2 main reasons that dictated who works or gigs the most and who doesn’t have been always talent and economics, the other night I saw a major recording artist Sheryl Crow on QVC selling her latest CD called “100 miles from Phoenix” which tell me that if somebody has something marketable better not rely on some established institution to sell your music but find your own way to sell it.

This is not a new idea mind you I remember the rapper Hammer recounting turning down recording contracts because he was making more money selling his CD from the trunk of his car after every gig,

Selling CD and merchandise goes on today still but it comes down to the same criteria, is the music good enough and priced to make it sellable? Because if it’s not no organization can compel clubs to hire or buyers to buy.

Cruel world we are on our own hence the term “Starving artist”

#118089 by KLUGMO
Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:52 pm
Financial text:

These decisions will have great "profit maximization" for our
shareholders and company as a whole.

These decisions will have great "ramafications" on our shareholders and company as a whole.

I made this up but it makes sense. The oil spill is a perfect example.
A suit or group of suits decided not to spend the $500,000 on a
safety device for the pipe that would have prevented what happened.
Today after interviewing workers that lived it was found out that many safety related issues were hidden or intentionaly covered up to not interupt oil production on the rig.

I think it would be foolish to assume that it is not happening on many
other rigs surrounding our country.

#118093 by jimmydanger
Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:07 pm
You would be foolish not to assume that every big company in the world is covering things up...only laws and the threat of huge fines and jailtime can keep these criminals honest.

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