General Music Chat

Actually, Glen, I'm rather sure that I've been extremely consistent in my gripes. Have you been reading what I typerate?

I HATE BIG BIZ. BIG BIZ GETS FAR TOO MANY LIBERTIES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE AMERICAN CITIZENRY. THEY HAVE BOUGHT OUR GOV'T, WHICH SCARES THE EVER-LOVIN' CRAP OUTTA ME. THEY GET AWAY WITH NOT PAYING INTO THE SYSTEM. THIS MUST STOP.

Is my message any clearer?

You are getting to the point , EVERY DOLLAR YOU PAY OUT..
It all just gets passed on down the line ,,,,Directly to you and even the poor.

Would you blame me if I make a 25 cent profit ,and the govt wants 10 cents,
would you blame me if I try to make 35 cents to offset that 10 cent tax, because if I don't make enough ,,, Then there is no reason for me to be in business.

HELL NO ..I'm gonna pass it on down the line to YOU. The only reason to be in business is TO MAKE MONEY. If you think that is wrong go and read all religious books of any religion... We are told to prosper and that is allways the wish of "the higher person in charge" God wants us to make money,and prosper. Stealing is not a recomended method to prosper... But that is exactly what you keep suggesting.

American corps aren't stealing from you.
YOUR ELECTED GOVT IS. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO STOP VOTING IN GODLESS THIEVES?

The more TAXES get out of control the less will ever be collected.

Phil,

I read your article.

All I can wonder is... WHERE IS YOUR MIND????

This article purports to show some deviousness in American corporations, but all it ends up doing, is PROVING MY POINT, that the tax burden on corporations is UNFAIR and is making American businesses UNCOMPETITIVE on the world stage! And causing some to flock to other nations, with preferable tax rates!

Did you really read it yourself?

HOW DO YOU MISS SUCH THING????

What is OBSCENE is "NOT" an American company like GE utilizing preferable tax rates overseas... what is ACTUALLY OBSCENE is that the business climate in overtaxed America... FORCES THEM to do this!!!

I would do what I had to do, to secure the bottom line too!

More than HALF of all Fortune 500 companies, incorporate in Delaware! There is a reason that an overwhelming amount of companies incorporate in Delaware! It is because Delaware makes it CHEAPER to incorporate there, and you don't have to be a resident of Delaware to do so, and if you don't conduct business in Delaware, you don't have to pay corporate taxes to the state!

Everyone can bitch about Delaware being "unfair" because they make their state so attractive for incorporating your business there, or... you can do like half a dozen or more other states have FINALLY done, and... Lower the rates in your own state, to keep it competitive and keep corporations there!

I realize that the "hatred of America" view, or the "socialist" view, would be that this is an OUTRAGE and should be fixed by FORCING businesses to remain in the states they are told to, and pay the inflated amounts of money that non-business minded thieves want from them...

But... Clearly, that would not be MY view on the matter!

How does anyone here feel about that ancient title of ours... "Land of Opportunity"??? I'm quite sure it was immigrants who made that up. But why did they call us that? Not because there was LOW UNEMPLOYMENT, and not because one could always find a decent BUSINESS (someone else's business) to work for! But it was because... NEARLY EVERYONE IN AMERICA seemed to own THEIR OWN enterprise! They were farmers and tradesmen and craftsmen, and ENTREPANEURS!!!

Americans don't seem to know what ENTREPANEURISM means any longer.

No, you have to get an education or learn a trade.... PERIOD!

And then, you need to work (all your life) for SOMEONE ELSE... PERIOD!!!

Let me just say...
F*CK THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is the VERY REASON this country was so successful to begin with! FREEDOM to mold your own destiny! Low taxes, and NO - NONE AT ALL - "Income Taxes" which should be UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!!

How do you tax... "WORK"

Taxes are meant to be assessed and derived, from a NET GAIN in one's monetary status or financial worth. In other words... I invested $5000 dollars in someone's business, and that investment brought me back $10,000 when paid back. I PROFITTED "$5000" from my INITIAL INVESTMENT!

My net worth changed.

Work, on the other hand is a TRADE, and NOT a true increase in net worth! I am PAID for what my WORK is considered to be worth. It is an EQUAL TRADE... I WORK ALL DAY in "EXCHANGE" for EQUAL VALUE in "money".

In any event...


The article itself spells out that America taxes it's businesses at a higher rate than MOST OTHER industrialized nations... Even more than CHINA!!! China is more lenient with their business tax rate, than America is! A COMMUNIST NATION... giving MORE FAIR tax rates to businesses, than OUR OWN DEMOCRACY HERE!!!

Like businesses incorporating in Delaware... is it really any surprise that businesses are FLOCKING to where conditions are more favorable? The solution is NOT to drive more businesses out, by raising their tax rates, but instead, to LOWER THEIR TAX BURDENS which INCREASES BUSINESSES - INCREASES PRODUCTIVITY - INCREASES JOBS - INCREASES SALARIES - And... may even... ATTRACT BUSINESSES "HERE" instead of the other way around!

The article (Like Phil himself) makes a HUGE error, in comparing INDIVIDUALS to MAJOR CORPORATIONS!

That is like someone in the trailer park, claiming... "Hey man... I run the used tire repair business I work for... but I drive a used Honda, yet, the head of Kraft Foods drives around in a limo! How is that fair man?"

Well, gee, let's see....


The used tire business employs 5 people and had revenue of $125,000 (thousand) dollars last year!

And...

Kraft Foods employs 98,000 people, and had revenues of $40,000,000,000 (BILLION) dollars last year!

That's how!


So, first of all...

INCOME TAX SHOULD BE ILLEGAL!!!

And secondly...

Major Corporations being taxed at rates of 25% and even 51% is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

FROM THE ARTICLES OWN FIGURES:


Taxes of the top 10 US companies (ranked by sales)

Figures in order are:

Sales
Pretax Income (BOLD)
Income Taxes Paid (IN RED)
Tax Rate by Percentage


1
Wal-Mart Stores
$401 billion
$20.9 billion
$7.1 billion
34%

2
Exxon Mobil
$311 billion
$37.3 billion
$17.6 billion
47%

3
Chevron
$172 billion
$18.5 billion
$8 billion
43%

4
General Electric
$157 billion
$10.3 billion
(-$1.1 billion)
N/A

5
ConocoPhillips
$152 billion
$10 billion
$5.1 billion
51%

6
AT&T
$123 billion
$19 billion
$6.2 billion
32%

7
Bank of America
$120 billion
$4.4 billion
(-$1.9 billion)
N/A

8
Ford Motor
$118 billion
$3 billion
$69 million
2%

9
Hewlett-Packard
$115 billion
$9.4 billion
$1.75 billion
19%

10
Berkshire Hathaway
$112 billion
$11.6 billion
$3.5 billion
31%

I know you hate big BIZ. but it is the only reason why this country is so GREAT.
I dont know why every one wants to bite the hand that feeds it,
Govt has allready crushed small biz..
Now lets crush big biz.
Phil , you are a great player ,but like I said, I hope you got enough money to bail out the WORLD,,, if you keep on with your thinking.I guess your mattress will be much easier to sleep on once that gold has gone to pay for survival.

This whole idea of taxing wealthy people to death, and taxing businesses to death, is just.... WRONG!!! - And only amounts to JEALOUSY of the less industrious among us!

If I made income of $40,000 dollars, I would pay $10,000 (25%)

If I made a million dollars, I would pay $350,000 (35%)

Yes, the millionaire may pay less, due to tax shelters, deducting land as farm land by owning a few cows, or whatever, but TRUST ME, they are going to pay A HELL OF ALOT MORE TAXES than I will.


10 Thousand in taxes.

350 Thousands in taxes.

Does the wealthier person get more services for that incredible difference in taxes? I drive on the same roads and bridges he does. I get the same military protection that he does. But he pays $340,000 more in taxes than I do!

You explain to me how that is fair?

Holy Cow Batman, I didn't know superman had a big"C" on his chest,,,and a no smoking sign.

Holy Cow Batman, I didn't know superman had a big"C" on his chest,,,and a no smoking sign.

Appears to be me alright!

You know what I just LOVE?
How you f**k just talk around me.

You know what I just LOVE?
How you f**k-ers just talk around me.

Sorry brother!

Now hold on there just a sec.

First off, how do you arrive at that "tax rate by percentage?" Show me the math involved, please.

Second, anyone or anything that has our gov't in its pocket should pay one helluva lot for it. I'm totally against big biz, it's true, but only because of a) thier greed, b) thier obscene profits, combined with the average low wages of thier employees, c) thier ability to bypass laws that the rest of us must adhere to, d) thier power scares the hell outta me.

Third, I've seen first-hand how the superstores affect local economies, just like anyone else. I've read about the environmental destruction in the face of those obscene profits. I've experienced & heard how they treat employees. I've read about how they buy our gov't. We're all experiencing the affects of the decisions of our banks, our insurance co's, pharmaceutical co's, car manufacturers, you name it. Our economic problems as a nation, at the moment, all revolve around these outfits, not social issues, not wars, not anything but these corp's.

THEY should be buying out the entire country's problems. THEY should be bailing US out. I still say tax 'em until it's fixed.

They're puttig small business out of business.

You can certainly have that opinion that this is a free country for biz to operate, but in my mind, when your biz is hurting the nation, it should pay for the damage it's done.

You're still telling me that a corp has more intrinsic value than the American citizen. That, sir, is so wrong that I don't even know how to respond. This nation was founded upon the rights of the individual to succeed, more than the conglomerate. When the conglomerates make it difficult to impossible for the individual to succeed, they best pay up for the social consequences of thier actions.

Imho, income taxes should indeed be declared illegal, except for those co's making in excess of a billion dollars. Keep things somewhat fair for the small guy trying to make a living.

Glen, big biz has not made our country great. Small biz did that, & now we're erasing the small-time entrepreneur in favor of the multi-billion-dollar outfits. I don't want to be a WalMart or GE employee, but the taxes & other restrictions they're putting on me to favor those co's like Lowes, in my line of work, are killing me as a businessman. I'm at the point that I'm trying to set up my own small-time conglomerate just to be able to stay in the game, & that shouldn't be necessary.

Right now, if you invented something that changed the world, you would not be allowed the profits. You would not be able to receive the fair value of your contribution to our world. Thnk about that for a bit.

Seriously, what would happen to you if you invented an engine that ran on used plastic & had no detrimental environmental affect?

First off, how do you arrive at that "tax rate by percentage?" Show me the math involved, please.

The figures were in your article itself. Or are you talking about the graduating tax rate for personal income tax?

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf

You're still telling me that a corp has more intrinsic value than the American citizen. That, sir, is so wrong that I don't even know how to respond.

For the purposes of this conversation it is NOT wrong at all. Corporations are not robots. People own them, manage them, invest in them and work in them. You may not have any investments sitting in retirement accounts, but millions of Americans do. It is in their interest that these corporations succeed. It is in the employees interest that these companies succeed.

If one person has a bad reaction to a medication, it is not a serious issue, where the nation is concerned. If millions of people have the same reaction, it becomes a very important problem, and the medicine would be banned.

If one person is unemployed, it is not a serious issue. If 10% of the population is unemployed, it is a VERY serious problem. A few people lose their homes, it is not of vital importance. Hundreds of thousands lose their homes? It is a CRISIS!

It is an UNDENIABLE fact, that the larger IMPACT whether for good or ill, that something has... the more importance it holds to the health, welfare or security of the nation.

Really, this is so basic, it can't even be argued.

Imho, income taxes should indeed be declared illegal, except for those co's making in excess of a billion dollars.

I never said that businesses should not be taxed. I said that "INCOME TAX" should be illegal. Not capital gains tax, or corporate tax, or sales tax. Personal Income Taxes, based on SALARIES, are a tax on work. As mentioned before, WORK is an EQUAL TRADE for the salary paid for the work. There is NO increase in profits. I exchanged my work for money. It was a fair and equal TRADE.

Glen, big biz has not made our country great. Small biz did that

Actually... -BOTH- did that! Centuries ago, there were MOSTLY small businesses. They fueled the growth of the nation, with farmers and merchants, all selling their wares and products. Technology changed much, replacing alot of manual labor jobs with machinery. Just as you are complaining about Walmart now... many people complained about these new machines THEN. They were the job killers then. The evil greedy business advancement of THEIR day. But people didn't starve, they adjusted, and started taking factory jobs, or doing other work.

In any event, machinery made it possible to be MORE PRODUCTIVE as a nation, and MORE MOBILE as a nation, and MORE SECURE militarily as a nation! And even more comfortable and more entertained in our own homes, with refrigerators and TVs and air-conditioning.

Were these TRULY bad things in the long run? Should we have listened to the naysayers then? The answer is NO. And we should not listen now either. Walmart is THE LARGEST RETAILER in the WORLD, my friend! And I am damn proud, that the LARGEST RETAILER IN THE WORLD is an AMERICAN COMPANY!!! And on a personal level, my life benefits from Walmart. From the convenience, from the low prices, from the excellent return policies... I would get NONE of those things, to that degree, at a mom and pop store. Because Walmart i so large and international, I am assured a great selection of items at very cheap prices. I can afford two or three, TVs, stereos, or appliances, at the price that ONE used to cost. This affords me a HIGHER STANDARD OF LIVING without having to wait for my income to rise.

It is a GLOBAL ECONOMY now.

Mom and pop stores CANNOT keep us competitive in the world any longer. Major corporations allow us to sell our products to the WORLD. We would be in the dark ages, if we ever returned to small business being the main force of our economy, without the CLOUT and POWER of a MEGA-BUSINESS that can produce enough to meet world demand, and sell a volume that allows reasonable prices to world consumers.

There will ALWAYS be small mom and pop operations. That is WONDERFUL! It is a stepping stone to greater successes. Some are happy at that level of success. For those who are more driven, such small businesses are an important transitioning stage, to becoming a major business, and a bigger player. Turning one store into a chain.

You really don't want to send us all back to the dark ages, where we could only MAIL each other through pony express, or we had to wait months for a new product to hit the music stores.

Which brings up a good point...

Do you shop at Guitar Center, and the like? Or do you ONLY patronize small mom and pop music stores, truly following your own philosophies? I bet you "DO" shop at the conglomerate Guitar Center, with it's better inventory and better prices and package deals! Why single out Wamart then? Well, I bet you shop there too! And I bet you get good deals, and convenience... yet you want to PUNISH them for being so good at what they do, that you HATE THEM, and yet still SHOP THERE!

Where's the consistency?

Actually, Craig, it may surprize you to learn that I DO shop at the mom & pop music stores almost exclusively. I also prefer to go to the small independent gas stations, hardware stores, & the like. I like to keep my money in my community whenever I can, even if it costs a few cents more.

I've never even been to a GC, & I only went to the big music stores twice in the last 15 years. Call me a fool, but I like what I like. I support small biz prolly much more than you, from what you tell me here, but I won't fault you for it, cuz there are pennies to be saved that add up to dollars quite often. I just don't wanna see the little stores going under, & do what I can to buy from them.

When I need to contract am electrician or a plumber, I only use local licensed ppl, too. Screw the big co's.

I live by my beliefs when it's feasible to do so. There are things like groceries & appliances that are hard to compete with, though I still stop at the roadside markets as often as I can, & get repairs through local ppl.

Well Phil,

That's good to hear! I respect you for doing your best to follow your beliefs! I mean that in all sincerity.

I shop at mom and pop stores too, but ONLY... if they have specialty products worth what they are asking for. In other words... I don't shop places because it buys the store owner a new home, and keeps his daughter in ballet class. Charity (to me) is for the needy. You DESERVE to go out of business, if you don't have a product worth what you are asking, or haven't created some niche for yourself, or offer something the big stores can't, etc...

While I "do" respect you, for, as you say, keeping money in your community... personally, I don't believe in CHARITY where business is concerned. If I am supporting a store owner primarily out of charity, why shouldn't he send my son to college then? I need charity too! Why am I paying a higher price, to keep his business open, when he is not offering me anything worth the higher price?

I had an employee of mine, who wouldn't work on Sundays. Well, I had a flower retail and wholesale business, and Mother's Day was one of the highest demands for flowers, next to Valentines. But Mother's Day falls on Sundays, so he wouldn;t even work THAT ONE single Sunday. It was the sabbath. You don't work on Sunday. He was very religious. I didn't agree with him, that there could be no EXCEPTIONS for Sunday, like switching to a Wednday for that one week, but hey... I respected him for his belliefs, and honoring them.

I respect you also, for following yours.

There are many advantages to spending those extra pennies, Craig, that don't include sending the merchant's kids to ballet class.

When the local guy gets a special deal on something, he calls me & shares the deal with me, first. His repairs are done with less flack. he orders what he doesn't have in stock, & makes sure the order is right when it arrives before he calls me. These local ppl take care of thier customers in ways that the big outfits are very lax in.

I've also gotten referrals to do shows, gotten students, met interesting musicians, & sold some of my own used equipment, thanks to the local businessman.

Nothing charitable about it. It's a two-way street.

These local ppl take care of thier customers in ways that the big outfits are very lax in.

Well, that's PRECISELY what I am talking about! They have a niche, they are filling... they are providing better customer service.

Nothing charitable about it. It's a two-way street.

And that is why it's working!

And Walmart doesn't interfere with that relationship apparently, right? Walmart's business model is something different... volume and low prices. You get your customer service, and I still get my low prices!


America works after all!